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    Moderated By: Toli
    Agoraquest Forum Index Getting Started/Building a Home Theater
      
    upgrade your power now Dashboard
    Replies: 123 | Views: 14,860
    Last Reply: October 28, 2003, 12:39 pm

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    paulaceto | Craig_Nike | rkkwan | Maxxwire | jttar | rb | thefaulkner | baseballgod | FirebirdTN | davisson | piwozniak | Kendrid | andy_waterworth |
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    Author upgrade your power now
    paulaceto

    Rank: Sony Legend


    Joined: Dec 14, 2001
    Posts: 1211
    From: Rhode Island, USA

      Posted: 2003-10-18 13:43

    We're getting way off track here. Don't extrapolate my comments to infer that I don't appreciate the fine work done by audio engineers. My statement is that no power cable can improve the quality of an audio system. The power cable is just too isolated from the audio frequency circuits. Those fine people you mention have plenty to do improving amplifier stages, drivers, speakers and room acoustics.

    Remember: My complaint is about $300 power cords.


         


    Maxxwire
    Moderator
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Adept


    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26067
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA

      Posted: 2003-10-18 14:10

    thefaulkner- Up until I actually tried some Hospital Grade outlets all I knew about them was that the green dot specification called for a long list of physical specifications regarding the durability of the outlets and their corresponding plugs.

    I used to use a standard $20 metal cased power strip with a 6' 14 ga shielded cord with a moulded plug to run between the 5 pieces of equipment in my Digital Front End and an AC Line Conditioner.

    I replaced the standard power strip with one that is outfitted with 3 Hospital Grade duplex outlets and a male IEC socket which I connected to the AC Line Conditioner with a Custom Power Cord Company Hi Value power cord which has a Hospital Grade plug.

    I've always heard other gear heads talk about how superior Hospital Grade outlets and plugs were, but I never could understand how their rugged build quality could translate into better Audio performance.

    As it turned out this is one of the most effective $75 upgrades I have ever done on my Audio system. I have listened to the 5 pieces of equipment and its associated wring in my Digital Front End every day for 3 years and I am very familiar with every aspect of how it performs.

    The benefit that this Hospital Grade outlet strip had was to allow the existing equipment to operate closer to its design specification which translated into a smoother and more detailed presentation.

    Come to think of it, its much as you described in your post about the importance of good connections. I can't think of any other explanation for the improvement in performance other than the improvement in the quality of the electrical connection.

    Regardless of whatever explanation or reason is offered for the preformance upgrade, I am never going back to performance inhibiting standard AC outlets!

    I once auditioned a $3,000 DAC that didn't come close to making the improvement that this $75 Hospital Grade power strip did.

    I wish you good success in making your Power Cord. I just wanted to share this experience that I had with Hospital Grade outlets and plugs. I realize that anyone's or everyone's experience with these devices may be different than mine were, but one of the reasons I like to post at Agoraquest is that it is a place that we can come and freely share our experience and what has worked for us in our Audio systems.

    -Maxx

    -----------------
    A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!



    The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930


         
    Maxxwire
    Moderator
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Adept


    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26067
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA

      Posted: 2003-10-18 15:25

    Paulaceto- Living here in Portland has afforded me the opportinity to meet and get to know three of the most capable, respected, and well known Audio Engineers in the country.

    I know each of them personaly and I know for a fact that each of them makes custom power cords for their own use and the equipment they design and make.

    Just for the record their names are Richard Kern, Andy Bartha, and Dan Wright.

    They have never told me that they design and build custom power cords for any other reason than that they feel that they can get better performance from their designs by using them.

    Andy Bartha prefers to use cryogenicly fused terminations as he feels that this makes for the ultimate termination. He tried to explain the metalurgical and conduction ramifications of cryogenic fusion to me once, but it was way over my head.

    I'm not implying in any way that you are in error concerning the lack of measurable differences in custom power cords. None of these guys ever told me that they always use their own custom designed power cords because they have any measurable differences.

    All I am trying to point out is that I know for a fact from having hours of face to face conversations with them that these top Audio Engineers use custom power cords of their own design to field test their work, and that if it made absolutely no difference whatsoever
    that these very intelegent and capable Audio Engineers would not waste their time and money designing and making the proprietary power cords that they use to evaluate their own work.

    -Maxx

    -----------------
    A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!



    The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930


         
    paulaceto

    Rank: Sony Legend


    Joined: Dec 14, 2001
    Posts: 1211
    From: Rhode Island, USA

      Posted: 2003-10-18 15:39

    Then get one or all of those guys to come on and explain in technical terms (no mumbo jumbo) why they believe as they do. We have the expertise here to understand them.

    Later: I did some searching on those names. I found two of them and damn if they're not selling (guess what)... power cables!



    [ This message was edited by: paulaceto on 2003-10-18 15:54 ]


         
    Maxxwire
    Moderator
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Adept


    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26067
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA

      Posted: 2003-10-18 18:27

    The fact that these nationaly famous Audio engineers design, make, and sell power cords to go along with the well respected and coveted Audio equipment they make is clear proof that they know that without these power cords the equipment they design will not run at peak performance.

    I will take the opinion of any of these three revered Audio equipment designers any day over the notions of some obscure and unknown meter reader with an axe to grind.

    Many Americans have the dream of finding something they love to do and eventualy being able to make a living at it. Richard, Andy, and Dan have made this dream come true for themselves in spades in the world of Audio electronics.

    Why would Audio engineers of their stature want to waste their valuable time trying to convince you of something you refuse to believe anyway no matter what they said?

    -Maxx



    [ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2003-10-18 22:25 ]


         
    Maxxwire
    Moderator
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Adept


    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26067
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA

      Posted: 2003-10-18 22:32

    Paul- I did some digging and found someone who is a well known power cable designer and may be able to answer some of the questions you have about power cables.

    His name is Robert Crump and his email address is:

    rcrump@houston.rr.com

    -Maxx

    -----------------
    A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!



    The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930


         
    paulaceto

    Rank: Sony Legend


    Joined: Dec 14, 2001
    Posts: 1211
    From: Rhode Island, USA

      Posted: 2003-10-19 10:23

    There you go again with a personal attack. Not very mature of you Maxx. I am not an "obscure and unknown meter reader with an axe to grind". I'm a pretty smart guy with a lot of training and experience. I'm using that training and experience to try to understand why people believe these odd things. In addition, I'm not selling anything. I did a search on Mr. Crump and found him over at audioasylum. Further searching uncovered that he is yet another power cord salesman. Sorry, but I need an unbiased engineer's explaination before I'll consider changing my opinion. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You're on the proving end of this debate Maxx.

    The posts over at that other site talked about the power cord acting like an antenna. While this is true, the rest of the wiring in the walls also does this. The filtering inside the electronics is supposed to take care of this. Any electronics for sale thoughout the world must pass FCC or IEC tests for suscepibility. This means that it cannot be affected by crap comming in from the power line. If people are so concerned about this, why not just build or buy an AC line filter rather than trying to modify a power cable? Modifying the cable seems an unlikely place to solve this noise problem.

    By the way Maxx, I can't tell from your profile what you do for a living. Do you sell this stuff too?



    [ This message was edited by: paulaceto on 2003-10-19 10:38 ]


         
    paulaceto

    Rank: Sony Legend


    Joined: Dec 14, 2001
    Posts: 1211
    From: Rhode Island, USA

      Posted: 2003-10-19 10:55

    I found the R. Crump power cord. Here is a link:
    Power Cord

    It uses off-the-shelf wire and connectors; nothing special. I don't see any filtering of any kind. The only difference is the foil/drain wire in the cable. He does do the right thing by connecting the drain at only the plug-end of the cable. But then you are only shielding the last six feet of wire. What about the hundred feet of unshielded wire in the walls?

    So this is the sort of thing people pay $300 for? Barnum was right, there is one born every minute!



    [ This message was edited by: paulaceto on 2003-10-19 10:57 ]


         
    davisson

    Rank: Sony Devotee


    Joined: Aug 20, 2003
    Posts: 98
    From: Albuquerque, NM

      Posted: 2003-10-19 12:51

    Maxx has to be a copywriter for an advertising agency. If he isn't, he's missing his true calling, given his ability to fabulate at length.
    One thing I've noticed in print ads and on websites that advertise these sorts of miracle cables is the sheer volume of words they use in their hype. I guess it's to cover up the fact that they have no hard data to back up their claims.
    For signal-carrying cables, I'm willing to concede that one should put out a few extra bucks to get well-made, sturdy ones. And I have. One should assure that a power cord has adequate gauge, good quality conductors, and makes solid connections at both ends. Most anything beyond that becomes science fiction.
    You know, Paul, the battle is fruitless because it's like a scientist attempting to argue with a creationist. They don't have even remotely the same set of understandings about the world around us.


       
    Maxxwire
    Moderator
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Adept


    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26067
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA

      Posted: 2003-10-19 13:21

    I and thousands of Music loving end users of Audio equipment have proven to our own subjective satisfaction that the effects of the custom power cables we use enhance the Musical performance of our Audo systems.

    I am a Music lover pure and simple. Electronic Audio equipment and wiring is just a means to that end. Better sound is the goal and the only burden of proof I have is that the Music that I love sounds better when my equipmet is outfitted with custom power cords.

    Your basic problem is that you are not like us in our love of the finer qualities of Music reproduction. You are willing to belittle all references to the enhanced Musical qualities that custom power cords offer as subjective tripe over your love of sterile measurements.

    If you want a certain type of answer to your technical qestions about custom power cords then fine, I wish you well in satisfying your own personal curiosity, but to invalidate my positive experience or the positive experiences that thousands of others have had with custom power cords just because you haven' as yet found the answer that you are looking for is hardly the scientific approach.

    This hobby has been a subjectively enjoyed one from the beginning and no one is obligated prove anything to anyone but themselves.

    Audio is about enjoying Music and Movies with the best equipment one can afford. No one wants to sit there in their living room trying to understand every aspect of every piece of equipment and why each wire works.

    For most of us the goal is to have a satisfying Musical experience and just because we can't explain the technical workings of every wire in our Audio systems in no way impunes or invalidates the quality of our experience or our own personal satisfaction with our personal Audio systems which we have custom designed to sound the way we desire them to with whatever equipment and wiring we find that accomplishes the goal of our own enjoyment without having to prove anything anything to anyone about why it sounds the way it does.

    The burden of proof that the effects of custom power cords do not exist is squarely on you Paul.
    I and thousands of others have suffidiently demonstrated Audible proof that custom power cords have made undeniable improvements in the abilities of our Audio systems and regardless of the technical explanation for these sonic phenomena you must now prove that these effects do not exist in order to prove that custom power cords have no effect.

    By definition no effect can exist without a cause and whether or not the cause is understood clearly on all levels or not has no bearing on the validity of the effect.

    These effects are sonic in nature and your burden of proof is that custom power cords do not improve soundstage depth, layering of images in the soundstage, width and height of the soundstage, attack ambients, decay ambients, the duration, density, and size of decay envelopes, pinpoint placement of instruments, the outlining if instruments, air around the instruments, and the liquidity of vocal presentations.

    When you can measure and quantify each and every one of these qualities of Music reproduction and thereby prove that custom power cords do not produce improvements in any of these areas then I will be satisfied that they can not the make improvements I and thousands of others will recant on the experiences we have had.
    If you can prove that there are no positive effects, then I will accept your theory that there is no cause for custom power cords to be able to effect any positive chanes in Audio equipment.

    -Maxx

    -----------------
    A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!



    The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930


         
    paulaceto

    Rank: Sony Legend


    Joined: Dec 14, 2001
    Posts: 1211
    From: Rhode Island, USA

      Posted: 2003-10-19 15:50

    Blather. What about the "custom" Crump power cord that you praise? It's just a few common parts. And as to who has the burden of proof- it's you who is making the extraordinary claim, not me.

    You haven't addressed a single issue I've raised. You just pile on the rhetoric sprinkled with Capital letters.


         
    Maxxwire
    Moderator
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Adept


    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26067
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA

      Posted: 2003-10-19 17:20

    I have already outlined in great detail the positive sonic effects that custom power cords can have when used with competent Audio equipment. These effects have been documented by thousands of Audio enthusiasts all over the world.

    If you want to prove your point that these effects do not exist, then I suggest that you do so.

    You have brought an inditement against the documented evidence that thousands of people have sworn to concerning the positive effects of custom power cords. Your job is to scientificaly refute that evidence.

    We are all waiting to hear your rock solid scientific evidence that these cords don't produce the positive sonic effects that we have attested to. I am very interested to see how an experienced EE makes his case and proves his point.

    As for myself, I have never used one of Bob Crumps wire designs and therefore can not comment one way or the other on its performance. I would never offer an opinion on any product that I had not personaly tried, to do so would be foolish.

    -Maxx

    -----------------
    A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!



    The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930


         
    davisson

    Rank: Sony Devotee


    Joined: Aug 20, 2003
    Posts: 98
    From: Albuquerque, NM

      Posted: 2003-10-19 17:24


    Quote:
    Your basic problem is that you are not like us in our love of the finer qualities of Music reproduction. You are willing to belittle all references to the enhanced Musical qualities that custom power cords offer as subjective tripe over your love of sterile measurements.



    Oh well. I guess in your book I'm a Lesser Being. Possibly even a different species.
    That's OK though. Personally, I don't think that Paul, I, or anyone else can "invalidate" your experiences since they are a result of your perception. After all, perception IS reality to a person. My main concern as a scientist and a teacher is to try to make sure that reality IS what is perceived.

    I'm more concerned, perhaps, with music than with "musical reproduction." So much so that I hold subscriptions seats to the symphony and the opera. I think that what I hear in my living room is about as comparable to these live experiences as recording/playback technology allows. In fact, my main gripe is more likely to be the overengineering of many of today's recordings--including the excessive way performances are miked and then re-created on the mixing board.


       
    Maxxwire
    Moderator
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Adept


    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26067
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA

      Posted: 2003-10-19 18:16

    davisson- I also attend live Classical Music recitals as often as I can. A friend of mine plays Cello in a local Music ebsemble and I often go to hear them perform live.

    The whole point I have been trying to make is that for many years I have made an effort to get Audio gear and associated wiring that can help to bring that "live" Musical experience into my home.

    Just this morning I was listening to a recording of a string quartet from Budapest play Beethoven's Opus 59 and it sounded so wonderfuly real. I could hear all of the intimate details of the original performance. I could even hear the slight creek of a chair as one of the Musicians moved back and forth in his chair as he played.

    My Audio system has brought me so much joy over the years and every improvement I have made has brought me a little closer to the Music.

    To be honest I don't understand exactly how each and every IC chip, processor, capacitor, resistor, or wire in my Audio system works and exactly how that effects the sound I am hearing, and I don't think that I need to in order to know that I like what I am hearing and that the sum total of all these elements produces this wonderful sound that I love to listen to and enjoy every day.

    Thanks again for your thoughtful remarks.

    -Maxx




    -----------------
    A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!



    The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930


         
    baseballgod

    Rank: Sonyphile


    Joined: May 13, 2003
    Posts: 409
    From: Connecticut

      Posted: 2003-10-19 19:51

    I am a natural born skeptic, I must admit. I wasn't one to believe that anything above garden variety or "included in box" cables would make a difference in my stereo system. I am lucky enough to have a large discount available to me through my occupation. I may also add that I am NOT a commissioned salesman. I figured what's the harm of buying a few cables...well these high quality have transformend my system from a good sounding system that reproduced music well to a fantastic system that allowed me to see deeper in to the artists creativity and talents.

    -----------------
    Aragon 24k pre, Aragon 2004 amp
    JM Lab Profil 77 floor speakers
    PS3, MacBook Pro sources
    Cambridge Audio DacMagic
    Straightwire power cables, MIT I/Cs


         
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