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new setup for system. looking for ideas |
mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
 |  Posted: 2011-07-25 11:09
Ok guys here goes. First let me qualify this thread by stating emphatically that when it comes to computers I'm very remedial so my apologies to those who aren't and please bear with me. Now to the point.
I'm looking to reconfigure my main system. It serves ( and will continue to do so) double duty as a HT and for reference music listening. It's SQ on both at this point is excellent. My main objective is to improve it's SQ on music and certainly in no way to detract from it's present level. I've always been a seperates fan but I'm looking to simplify, if possible, and to reduce long term cost, if possible. (My present system consists of several stand alone source components. They include the following Sony ES units, a single deck CD/SACD player(SCD-XA9000ES), dual deck CD recorder(RCD-W2000ES), single deck DVD/SACD player with HDMI (DVP-NS9100ES), modded DVD/SACD 5 disc changer with no HDMI (DVP-NC555ES). It also has two Kenwood KX-2060 cassette decks, a VCR/DVR combo and a HD Scientific Atlanta Cox cable box. These are connected to a Sony STR-DA9000ES receiver used as a pre/pro which is in turn connected to a Carver M-4.0t power amp(bridged to run my center channel) and a Verastarr SSA-644 which powers all of my other speakers. All components are silver BTW). Maxx made a great point to me and it really brought to fore something I've been tossing around in my brain for awhile and that is using my computer as a "player" for my digital sources. Now for the questions.
Can I use my computer as a "universal player" for all of my digital sources i.e. CDs, BluRay etc? I believe this is possible I just want to make sure. If so can it's performance be on par with using high-end "conventional" seperate sources and if so what is needed?
If that is possible then also is there some way I can use it as a processor thus eliminating a seperate processor/receiver connected to my power amps? All ideas, opinions, suggestions will be greatly appreciated._mykl
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-07-25 11:40
Another thing I was considering to significantly improve the SQ of 2ch music, if I can't use my computer as a processor either because it can't be done or won't sound good, is to add a great vintage stereo pre-amp feeding my mains between a decent modern processor and my power amp instead of just going with a great modern pre/pro. My thoughts are that this will be cheaper in the long run as great modern pre/pros are very expensive and with constantly changing tech in processors become outdated quickly. I'm not concerned with having world class SQ on movies so a pre/pro that has decent sound yet provides the "modern" video features is all I'm looking for on movies. But I do want as close as I can get to world class SQ on 2ch music. Don't need a receiver in either case as I don't need the amplification but if it turns out that a receiver would provide me with the features I need and the same SQ for less cash than a processor I'm game. Any thoughts?_mykl
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Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25732
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
 | Posted: 2011-07-25 18:03
_mykl- You can simplify things by knowing that the computer has Digital Audio outputs which can be directly connected to the available Digital inputs on your DA9000ES which you are using as a Pre-Pro just as any other Digital Audio player would be.
First you would need to know what Digital outputs on your computer are either available or could be made available such as Firewire ( iLink), Digital Coax or Optical Toslink.
Next you would need to find out which Digital inputs are available on the DA9000ES to connect computer to.
Once you decide on which Digital connection to use its very basically as simple as playing any music you want on the computer just as you would any new Digital player.
It would also be good to know which Windows Operating System your computer uses in order to know how many Digital outputs it will allow to be used simultaneously.
Not to rush things, but you can use Windows Media Player to play your Music files if you like, but I prefer the excellent sounding 32 bit processing of the AIMP 2 Freeware Audio Player which you might consider trying after all the connections between your computer and that great Audio System are made.
You asked-
"Can I use my computer as a "universal player" for all of my digital sources i.e. CDs, BluRay etc? I believe this is possible I just want to make sure. If so can it's performance be on par with using high-end "conventional" separate sources and if so what is needed?"
Yes, medium that your computer's Optical Drive can play can then be sent to your Audio System for amplification. I have found that Music from my computer to be much better than the high end separate sources in my "conventional" Audio System.
"If that is possible then also is there some way I can use it as a processor thus eliminating a separate processor/receiver connected to my power amps? All ideas, opinions, suggestions will be greatly appreciated."
It is quite likely that your computer's sound card will perform all of the processing that you will need, but since the best sounding output of the computer's sound card is Digital you will need the Digital processing in the DA9000ES's preamp to provide an Analog signal to the Power Amps.
Finally- What is the make and model of your computer's sound card?
~Maxx~
 Sony H-9 MaxxPix
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-07-25 18:35
Ok I think I'm starting to get a better understanding. I'll have to check the back of my PC to see what's really back there. AFA the 9kES I have all digital inputs save HDMI available if need be. I don't know what my sound card is. Could NVIDIA HD Audio be it? My OS is Windows Vista Ultimate waiting on Windows 8 before I make an upgrade there.
If I understand correctly the proper soundcard will do all of my digital processing but there wouldn't be any D/A conversion in the computer so I would need some sort of an external DAC to send an analog signal to the power amps. Am I right?
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Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25732
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-07-25 19:30
_mykl- You're right, making sure exactly what Digital Audio Outputs are available on your computer is the first step. You can download System Information for Windows which can be run from its folder as an .exe without having to install it on your computer and it will tell you exactly what sound card is in your computer.
Sound cards do have D/A conversion but they do not have top quality Burr-Brown DAC chips like Audiophile Audio gear uses so that by the time the Analog Audio signal leaves the computer and travels even on high end interconnects to the Preamp it sounds muddy by comparison to the processing of the computer's Digital Audio output by a good Pre-Pro. I've had the best success just using the computer as a source of Digital Music playback and letting my Sony Receiver do the rest.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
.....The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
Sony H-9 MaxxPix
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scott1019
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 543
From: USA>>Ohio
 | Posted: 2011-07-25 23:45
I am going through the same process as you are. At first I contemplated going the direction of i.Link and use the firewire interface, but without the proper software its not plug and play. There are plug and play i.Link cards, but I believe these are only available for a Mac. I could be wrong, but I have yet to find a moderately priced and simple set-up for a PC.
And yes I agree with Maxx, sending the digital audio out from your computer is in many ways better than playing CDs on a transport and then sent to your outboard DAC, in your case your DA9000ES receiver.
I purchased my EP9ES for this purpose and I cannot speak more highly of it. They are selling for under $150 these days. I paid $150 for mine with the remote. Sound from my PC now rivals my reference NEC CD-816 CD player.
It gets tricky if you want to go the route of Blu-Ray. Most likely this will mean getting a Blu-Ray drive that can outperform an Oppo or PS3, a very tall order indeed. You will then need a video card up to the challenge as well. I use my PC to stream HD videos, play my .wav files (all copied from my CD's), listen to internet radio etc.,... pretty much anything I can't do using typical optical media.
While I have a very capable Lite-ON DVD drive, I find the process of powering on my PC and opening the software to watch a movie to be cumbersome. It can be done, but may take some getting used to.
Do you at least have an optical output on your sound card? If not, Creative makes a very capable sound card that connects via USB. I have the earlier version I picked up at Wal-Mart for $50 bucks back when Wal-Mart sold quality computer parts. You may be able to find one of these as well.
Sound from my PC sent via a glass toslink to my EP9ES is BETTER than the same content played on a CD sent via the same Toslink on my reference CD player! Multiple listening tests have proved this to me despite intense skepticism.
Sony made a Vaio changer to hold all your optical media and send this information to your PC with very intuitive software. If you have a lot of optical media and want to go this route its definitely something worth looking into. It requires a PC to operate and connects via Firewire. It transmits a different codec than what's decoded by receivers as i found out when I tried to hook it up to my receiver. It makes a very loud hissing sound...
Here is a link to this unit. I wouldn't recommend it for daily playback, but it makes copying your CDs/DVD's onto your hard-drive a breeze.
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-VGP-XL1B3-Digital-Systems-Changer/dp/B000ODYL58
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-07-26 02:00
Thanks for the info and links guys!! I'll be looking at the back of my PC right away.
Maxx_Tried the download and it seems that indeed my soundcard is a NVIDIA High Definition Audio.
I'll be back as soon as I have a look at the back of my PC. Thanks again guys and keep the ideas coming!! With your help I'm sure I can have 21st century SQ!!_mykl
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Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25732
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-07-26 02:31
On 2011-07-25 11:40, mykyll2727 wrote:
But I do want as close as I can get to world class SQ on 2ch music. Don't need a receiver in either case as I don't need the amplification but if it turns out that a receiver would provide me with the features I need and the same SQ for less cash than a processor I'm game. Any thoughts?
The features that you will have using your DA9000ES as a Pre-Pro are quite adequate. It is completely up to you how you configure your new setup using your computer as the Digital front end and making the best use of the excellent Audio equipment that you already have.
I have found in my own System that using a Sony Receiver for Digital processing, Pre-Pro, and amplification streamlines the allocation of AC Power down to only needing one high quality power cord which greatly enhances the sound quality and allows the computer and the Receiver to be run on the same high quality duplex outlet which is the ideal arrangement for the highest quality playback at the least expense for AC Power Delivery which as we discovered can be quite expensive for top quality Line Conditioning back in 2006 when you acquired the one and only Mav's 3.1 Line Conditioner in North America...
You have a lot of great resources to work with and in true _mykl style I am sure that you will come up with a configuration that makes the best use of them as it alters the very definition of World Class Stereo playback.
~Maxx~
 Sony H-9 MaxxPix
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-07-26 02:32
Maxx _Yep that's mine on the right!!!! The one and only, still going great BTW!! Mav did an outstanding job!! You make an excellent point about the AC. One more factor to consider.
I'm really excited about this new setup and I appreciate all of the help.
I had considered that I may still need to use a external processor to produce the best SQ while using my computer as a universal source. So that leads us to my second post. My feeling is that since I'm not wealthy and that processors become outdated so quickly (Not to mention they're not built to last unlike some of the vintage gear) that investing huge amounts of money in a high-end unit isn't the way to go for me. The pre/pros that produce truly world class stereo sound are EXPENSIVE. Processors are something I expect that I would have to replace every couple of years or so due to tech advancements and unit failure, making them "disposable". So I've been pondering a setup where I use a "disposable" pro/receiver connected to a truly great vintage pre-amp that feeds my mains thru my power amp. what do you guys think. Will that give me the SQ I'm looking for._mykl
[ This message was edited by: mykyll2727 on 2011-07-26 02:52 ]
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Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25732
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-07-26 03:05
_mykl- I found that Steve Hoffman's 'Mo Simple-Mo Betta' rule applied quite well in setting up a computer as the Digital front end in my Audio System. In my computer Audio System a simple run of Glass Toslink to my Sony Receiver put my old Reference $10,000 Digital processing completely out of business along with the 1964 Amperex 7308 PQ Tube/FET Preamp which is the same design as Dan Wright uses.
It has taken me months to get used to such a simple and inexpensive set of Audio Gear being able to blow away the sound quality of my old $25,000 traditional Reference Audio System which I have not listened to since the computer took over Digital front end duties running the Sony Receiver and its Reference Quality AC Power Delivery was finally completed.
I've been continually adding equipment to my Audio System for over 30 years and I am still completely shocked that only 2 pieces of equipment running off the same Pure Copper Duplex Outlet can sound so much better than the 9 pieces in the old Reference Audio System which used 12 power cords.
I would suggest that you play it by ear and experiment with the great Audio gear that you already have to see what works best for you in achieving the World Class Stereo playback that you want from using your computer as a Digital front end.
~Maxx~
Sony H-9 MaxxPix
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-07-26 03:28
Maxx_Super points!! You know I have a "tendency" to go full bore when I get a bug on. Part of my reason for wanting to use my computer to replace my sources and if possible a pre/pro is for simplicity, ease, efficiency and long term cost reduction. Indeed inserting a pre amp between a processor and my amp complicates things and adds one more unit in the AC delivery. Contradictory to those goals. Of course my main objective is to get the best SQ possible but I want to do that in the simplest and most cost efficient way possible. I will take it one step at a time.
Any thoughts on the effect of the AC on the SQ of the computer? Line conditioning, power cords, outlets etc._mykl
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Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25732
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-07-26 04:00
On the computer I'm using a $250 12 AWG Synergistic Research Alpha A/C Master Coupler which has silver plated copper conductors that I bought used for $40 which I eventually re-terminated it with the Furutech FI-25 Pure Copper Plugs as seen here, but later upgraded to the Furutech FI-28 Rhodium Plated Pure Copper Plugs which I use exclusively in my computer Audio System.
These Rhodium Plugs are what initially allowed my Sony Receiver to do what had always seemed impossible and that was to deliver much better sound quality than my 40X more expensive Reference Audio System.
This is how our friend Mike VansEvers explains how a computer can benefit from using a premium quality power cord for delivering Music due to the Musical nature of AC Power...
"Interconnects and speaker cables are obviously conductors of wide-band audio frequency energy. These signal path cables make audible differences in music systems.
The current flowing through power cords is also wide-band audio frequency energy that varies with the volume AND the frequency content of the music! Granted, you wouldn't want to listen to this 'signal,' but the similarities to a music signal are clear.
Many of the same factors that cause interconnects and speaker cables to have their own unique sound will in turn cause power cords to have theirs."
The other functions of the computer are at best improved slightly in comparison to the very positive audible differences when it is used at a Digital front end delivering Music. In all I tried 3 different sets of AC Plugs on this power cord and I can say with confidence that the Rhodium Plated Plugs were outstandingly better at producing amazing sounding Stereo than the gold plated plugs! I'm not trying to sell you on a specific AC Plug, but rather demonstrating how going with a top quality AC Plug from the start can save a lot of money finding out the hard way that the lesser quality AC Plugs just do not perform as well.
The quality of outlet that the computer draws its power from is at least as critical as the power cords are in being able to provide access the kind of high quality AC Power that it takes for the computer to perform at the highest levels possible.
~Maxx~
 Sony H-9 MaxxPix
[ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2011-07-26 04:45 ]
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-07-26 22:40
I appears to me that my soundcard has an optical and a HDMI output._mykl
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-07-26 22:52
Scott_It's great that our systems are going down simliar paths. It'll be great sharing our progress and experiences._mykl
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Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25732
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-07-27 00:05
On 2011-07-26 22:40, mykyll2727 wrote:
I appears to me that my soundcard has an optical and a HDMI output._mykl
As you know I've been using Glass Toslink for from the computer for playing Digital Music right from the beginning and while I can not use HDMI I have been made quite aware of its Digital Audio timing flaws due to its muxing of the Audio and Video clocks I didn't miss having it as an option at all.
So lets talk about the attributes of connecting your computer to the Pre-Pro using Glass Toslink. Originally I used my Glass Toslink between the Transport and i2s Bus Digital processors in the Digital front end of my what was then my Reference Audio System and it sounded fantastic. When I transfered the Glass Toslink over to the computer it sounded even better than when it was in the 5 picosecond jitter Digital front end!
I want to now make the clarification that when I was using the ~10 Mhz bandwidth Dayton GOC Glass Toslink on the computer Audio it sounded much better than the 30 Mhz Audioquest Optilink 4 did on the 5 picosecond i2s Digital front end which is why I was so reluctant to move the Optilink 4 in the first place because the Dayton GOC Glass Toslink already sounded so incredibly good.
If you decide to use our 13 Mhz bandwidth SonicWave Glass Toslink to connect your computer to the Pre-Pro I predict that you will be very pleasantly surprised at what you hear! In my experience I was shocked to hear my ~10 Mhz bandwidth Glass Toslink sound even better than the i2s Bus and it would be interesting to find out how your your 13 Mhz Glass Toslink sounds compared to your iLink gear...
~Maxx~
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