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21st century sound quailty of home audio. Why isn't better? |
mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
 |  Posted: 2011-06-28 14:05
Video technology has made so many advancements in the last 10-15yrs that it makes me feel like such an anachronism. HD, 3D, BluRay, flat screens, streaming, wireless and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Yet it seems to me audio is lagging far behind in technology and perhaps more importantly sound quality. IMO with the exceptions of source media (the disc etc.) and DSP (which IMO is mostly geared to enhancing the video experience) audio tech and SQ hasn't advanced very far in the last 40+yrs.
Many audiophiles choose to go with tubes and vinyl feeling that it sounds better than today's tech. Most amplifier and speaker designs are essentially the same as those from the '70s. Sure there are improvements in the quality of materials and design of some parts yet still high quality products in these areas from the '70s can more than hold their own against today's units. There's no question that my viewing experience today is light years ahead of what it was in 1980. No comparison what so ever! Try to convince and get a videophile to use the same units and tech from 1980 because his viewing experience will be better than what he can have today.LOL. But the truth is a high quality stereo system from the same time period will stand up quite well against today's. When it comes to recreating the live experience video has come so far in the last decade or so, yet music reproduction is at best is only slightly better than 30yrs ago. There are many using vintage amplifiers, some from the '70s, not just for nostalgia but because they still sound great compared to today's. Heck Klipsch has been making the same speaker model (with some parts upgrades) for 60+yrs and it still sells well. I think that speaks volumes as to the SQ of today's home audio. What I wonder about is why? Any opinions?
Maybe my opinion is askewed. Maybe there's stuff out there I'm unaware of and I'm uniformed and ignorant of the audio tech of today and it's resultant SQ. If so please educate me. I would love to know your opinions on the state of SQ of today's audio._mykl
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Maxxwire
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Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25735
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
 | Posted: 2011-06-28 17:35
On 2011-06-28 14:05, mykyll2727 wrote:
Many audiophiles choose to go with tubes and vinyl feeling that it sounds better than today's tech. Most amplifier and speaker designs are essentially the same as those from the '70s. Sure there are improvements in the quality of materials and design of some parts yet still high quality products in these areas from the '70s can more than hold their own against today's units.
You have a very valid point and as for myself in seeking a better sound quality I migrated from Solid State to a Tube-FET Preamp and Vacuum Tube Power Amp...
To my ears this vintage GE 6CA7 Vacuum Tube powered clasic Ultralinear Conrad-Johnson Power Amp and its 7308 Amperex PQ Tube/FET Counterpoint Preamp sounds much better than any of the Solid State Preamp/Amp combos costing 10X as much that I have ever heard down at the Audio Shop.
That said, over the last 30+ years I have discovered that the ultimate difference in sound quality is not the type of Amplification, but rather in the quality of the AC Power that any type of Audio equipment is using.
This was proved out in my Audio System over a 7 month period when my $600 1999 Sony DB 930 Receiver which never sounded anywhere close to the excellent sound quality of the $25,000 Vacuum Tube Reference Audio System until the DB 930 had its AC Power Delivery System upgraded with among other improvements a high quality Pure Copper Outlet and a Single Crystal Copper power cord with a Rhodium Plated Pure Copper Bladed AC Plug.
After becoming disappointed with the sound quality of Solid State equipment and building a classic Ultralinear Vacuum Tube Audio System that sounded much better and then having a non-ES Sony Receiver achieve levels of Sound Quality that are an entire order of magnitude better than either the Solid State or Vacuum Tube powered Audio gear I must conclude that the quality of the AC Power Delivery is the primary determining factor in obtaining the very highest sound quality from any type of Audio equipment.
Based on the results of these experiences I am of the opinion that the quality of Audio gear has not improved over the last 40 years because most people and even Hi-End Audio shops are still using the same compromised quality of AC Power Delivery that they always have been using over the decades and therefore the Audio gear they use is still operating under the same set of limitations like this $100,000 McIntosh Reference Audio System using $700 power cords with $15 AC Plugs all accessing AC Power from a System shared Power Strip...
Not even the fine $5,500 Pagoda Equipment Rack can bring back the damage done by a poor quality AC Delivery Network.
~Maxx~
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-06-28 18:00
Maxx_I'm totally convinced that the quality of the AC will have a great effect on the performance of all AV equipment. The thing is running off the same quality AC today's video shames yesterday's. This just doesn't seem to be the case of audio. Indeed running a modest system on great AC might well take it's performance beyond that of a "great" system running on poor AC one of yesterday's systems running on the same quality AC as one of today's systems will still be in contention AFA SQ. I'm just wondering why there hasn't been a quantum leap in the tech and SQ of today's audio as opposed to yesterday's. Why, AC being equal, isn't the SQ of today's equipment so vastly superior to that of the equipment of 30-40yrs ago that noone in their right mind wouldn't find it better and that the ownership of vintage audio tech would be solely for nostalgic/collectible reasons. Not for close, or to some even better, audio performance._mykl
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-06-28 18:12
Maxx _I know Audio Alchemy has gone OOB ( moved onto Alchemy2, which I'm only aware of making a few devices to correct lipsync errors) but I was wondering what products of theirs are you using and their purposes._mykl
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Maxxwire
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Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25735
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-06-28 18:45
On 2011-06-28 18:00, mykyll2727 wrote:
Maxx_I'm totally convinced that the quality of the AC will have a great effect on the performance of all AV equipment. The thing is running off the same quality AC today's video shames yesterday's. This just doesn't seem to be the case of audio.
Let's go back to what Mike VansEvers had to say about how Audio playback is different than Video or any other kind of playback in how it uses AC Power...
"For example: A bass drum hit will draw more bass energy from the wall than a cymbal crash, and a cymbal crash will draw more treble energy from the wall than a bass drum hit.
Power cords define the energy that is radiated into a listening room: The sound we all hear.
This is because all audio output signals, especially those of power amps, are produced when an input signal modulates the energy drawn from the parallel combination of the wall and the components' power supply."
One of the reasons that I know Mike VansEvers is correct about the importance of the preservation of the frequency spectrum in the supply of AC Power that the Audio equipment modulates into the Music we hear is that while I have been able to get Order of Magnitude improvements literally 10X better Audio playback from improving the quality of the wiring in the AC Power delivery I have never been able to get more than a comparatively slight improvement in terms of Video Quality. If Video Quality was as degraded by the quality of AC Power Delivery as Sound Quality is you would see a corresponding degradation when comparing it to other Video formats.
As Mike VansEvers pointed out "Power cords define the energy that is radiated into a listening room: The sound we all hear" and improving their quality will improve the quality of the Music we hear, but the same improvements will by comparison do little for Video quality which explains why Video quality is not degraded by or limited in the same way as Sound Quality is by compromised AC Power delivery because Audio equipment requires an undisturbed and undistorted frequency spectrum in the AC Power to modulate into the very best sounding Music while Video is under no such requirement.
~Maxx~
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
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Maxxwire
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Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25735
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-06-28 19:20
On 2011-06-28 18:12, mykyll2727 wrote:
Maxx _I know Audio Alchemy has gone OOB but I was wondering what products of theirs are you using and their purposes._mykl
The main processing unit is the Audio Alchemy Pro 32 which uses the RAL .99999 Fine Silver power umbilical to its dedicated 3 Amp Power Supply which produces a 5 picosecond jitter signal over I2S Bus which is 800% lower jitter than the 40 picosecond output of iLink.
The shocking truth of how effective enhanced AC Power Delivery can be is that the 24/96 output of my computer's Realtek sound card over Fused Silica Glass Toslink to my Sony DB 930 now sounds sounds at least 10 times better than than the 5 piece I2S Audio Alchemy Digital front end. That is how incredibly effective applying the AC Power Principals can be in terms of Sound Quality.
~Maxx~
Sony H-9 MaxxPix
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-06-28 19:41
Maxx_Understood. But that still doesn't address what I'm curious about. While AC quality has a greater impact on audio than video today's video is vastly superior to that of yesterday irrespective of AC quality. It's just far better and while things may be done to degrade it, all things being equal, it's just simply much, much better.
That doesn't seem to be true of audio. Yes AC quality can improve the performance of a specfic audio piece's performance regardless of vintage, but when one levels the playing field with regard to AC quality why isn't today's audio SQ simply far better than that of decades past? Why hasn't there been a quantum improvement in audio SQ on the level of video? My questioning isn't with regard to improving the SQ of an existing piece or pieces by RT, AC line quality (Your fantastic threads on AC explain and prove that), etc. but rather why doesn't today's units far outperform that of yesterday's when all things, such as AC quality, are equal?_mykl
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-06-28 19:48
Maxx_So is the Pro 32 a DAC or essentally an upscaler?_mykl
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Maxxwire
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Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25735
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-06-28 19:55
On 2011-06-28 19:41, mykyll2727 wrote:
Why doesn't today's units far outperform that of yesterday's when all things, such as AC quality, are equal?_mykl
For the same reason that all Audio Systems with blankets over the speakers sound about the same. Take away the horribly degrading effects of commonly accessed AC power and you will be able to hear how all Audio equipment truly sounds without the Sound Quality ceiling that poor AC Power establishes.
~Maxx~
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
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dahrich
Premium Member
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Mar 28, 2003
Posts: 749
From: California
 | Posted: 2011-06-28 20:00
Hello:
I think the issue here is not the trees but the forest.
The geneal population can readily desceren visual changes and improvements and is willing to pay for them. HD for ex. Audio has made great changes but not necessarily in SQ. Consider the Sony Walkman and today's iPod. The mass market wants small and or portable devices where SQ is not important. Consequently, where does the industry focus?
The audiophile market has to be a small one.
Regards,
Richard
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-06-28 20:04
My question to the members is this_Why do you think that the sound quality of today's audio gear given design, construction, technology isn't FAR superior in comparison to that of decades old audio gear on a level with that of video performance improvements? In the opinion of many some of today's audio tech actually sounds inferior to the "old stuff". Why do you think that is? Was audio tech in say the '70s so far advanced over that of video and so advanced in general that all we can do today is "tweak" decades old technology to create at best only minorly better, and in the opinions of some not even as good, sounding audio?What do you think?_mykl
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-06-28 20:23
On 2011-06-28 20:00, dahrich wrote:
Hello:
I think the issue here is not the trees but the forest.
The geneal population can readily desceren visual changes and improvements and is willing to pay for them. HD for ex. Audio has made great changes but not necessarily in SQ. Consider the Sony Walkman and today's iPod. The mass market wants small and or portable devices where SQ is not important. Consequently, where does the industry focus?
The audiophile market has to be a small one.
Regards,
Richard
Richard_Interesting and thanks for chiming in I appreciate your input. I've considered your view. It seems that you're saying is you think it's a matter of a money driven situation with regard to audio SQ. Or better a lack of it. As I said I've pondered that and though the audiophile market may be small there does seem to me that there's alot of money in it. When I see speakers and amps costing in the $100 of thousands and I read companies bragging about the amount money they spent in the R&D of their latest offering in these areas, which is still essentially based on decades old tech, I'm not so sure that's the answer. Certainly could be though. I wonder if it's just not a matter of the audiophiles settling on what they get. They'll pay googobs of cash on stuff that doesn't sound any better than what was available a generation or more ago so that's what they get. Or maybe it's that mankind has hit a wall with regard to SQ and we're just fundamently unable to improve SQ along the lines of other tech advances. I don't know and am really curious as to the opinions of others._mykl
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-06-28 20:29
On 2011-06-28 19:55, Maxxwire wrote: <blockquote> On 2011-06-28 19:41, mykyll2727 wrote: Why doesn't today's units far outperform that of yesterday's when all things, such as AC quality, are equal?_mykl
For the same reason that all Audio Systems with blankets over the speakers sound about the same. Take away the horribly degrading effects of commonly accessed AC power and you will be able to hear how all Audio equipment truly sounds without the Sound Quality ceiling that poor AC Power establishes.
~Maxx~
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</blockquote>
OK so let me see if I get what you're saying. Are you saying that I'm wrong in my asessment of the SQ of today's units and that if today's and yesterday's units are both run off equally great AC quality that today's units would blow the socks off yesterday's on an order equivalent to what's happened in video?_mykl
[ This message was edited by: mykyll2727 on 2011-06-28 20:47 ]
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Maxxwire
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Posts: 25735
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-06-28 22:20
_mykl- After 11 years of effort being put into finding the most efficient AC Power Delivery with the help of a First Impression Music power cord with 9 solid core Copper conductors, a VansEvers Reference 12 line conditioner and an Ohno Continuous Cast Single Crystal Copper power cord with a Furutech FI-28 Rhodium Plated Pure Copper AC Plug on my DB 930 I began for the very first time to be able to hear hear the kind of ultra high definition Audio output that you are talking about and wondering why all modern gear doesn't have.
All I'm saying is that this ultra high definition in audio playback does currently exist under the right circumstances if high quality AC Power is provided and as far as I am concerned exhibits a much higher level of audible resolution and detail than any Blu-Ray Video I have seen.
On 2011-06-28 20:29, mykyll2727 wrote:
OK so let me see if I get what you're saying. Are you saying that I'm wrong in my asessment of the SQ of today's units and that if today's and yesterday's units are both run off equally great AC quality that today's units would blow the socks off yesterday's on an order equivalent to what's happened in video?_mykl
What I am trying to say is that you are correct about the poor sound quality of modern Audio equipment and that it is unable to will render its best performance while shackled by the poor quality AC Power Delivery that is so abundant these days.
I've owned a lot of 1960's gear and the fact that most of those pieces were filled with very muddy Mylar capacitors which was certainly a hindrance to their performance an sound quality making them sound 'thick' and this is the reason that this vintage gear is usually modified with Polyethylene and Polystyrene capacitors by knowledgeable Audiophiles to give it a better Sound Quality.
There is also some excellent Audio equipment from the past designed by the likes of John Curl, Ed Meitner and others which has never been equaled and so I see no blanket rule as to whether the vintage or modern gear as a group is best sounding, but rather with a high quality source of AC Power and a top notch AC Power Distribution Network I would say that any highly competent rebuilt vintage Audio Gear or high quality contemporary Audio gear could easily be made to improve the Resolution and Sound Quality of its Audio Output by an order that is much greater than Video has improved from the days of SD.
~Maxx~
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
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jttar
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Posts: 9156
From: Chicago,IL, USA
 | Posted: 2011-06-28 22:42
First off, interesting topic mykl. I understand what you are saying and comparing. Here is another way of looking at it. Home theater sound is often incredible. Years ago when we were growing up, the movies we watched at home or even in the theater never had the sound impact that we can get in our home theaters. To me the real improvement in Blu Ray movies is not so much the picture but the incredible sound. I mean the video is high deff and that's cool but to my ears the sound is much better then standard DVD's.
As far as two channel listening, the very best you can hope to hear out of any system is the same as being there and listening to live music. I think once you can close your eyes, listen to the music and place each instrument in the sound stage in front of you that's all there is. Once you can recreate a live performance what else can you hope to hear.
Joe
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