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    Moderated By: claudio
    Agoraquest Forum Index MD/CD/SACD
      
    Why are SACD's soo much better? Dashboard
    Replies: 37 | Views: 7,023
    Last Reply: May 31, 2011, 9:21 pm

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    mhedges | jehill | mykyll2727 | David_S | dontsleep33 | scott1019 | sterling1 | Yequan |
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    Author Why are SACD's soo much better?
    scott1019

    Rank: Sonyphile


    Joined: Aug 07, 2010
    Posts: 543
    From: USA>>Ohio

      Posted: 2011-02-15 19:14

    Yes, I understand this, but few receivers have the capability of receiving the DSD signal via HDMi or I.Link and the end result is no different than sending a RBCD's 44.1 kHz, 16-bit PCM via Toslink.   Granted the sampling rate will be higher, closer to what DVD-audio is, but for 2 channel playback I cannot see the benefit since the "extra" information will not have any audible difference.   

    I understand SACDs application for multi-channel recordings, but even then how is it better than DVD-audio since the original DSD track is converted to LPCM at some point in the processing.  Analog outs are still the best way to go since the processor knows what to do with them and doesn't convert it or compress it.  However, to my understanding most processors/receivers A/D/A convert which reduces the fidelity as well.

    Its my understanding that the DSD HDMi and I.Link feed is compressed and converted into LPCM and then undergoes a D/A conversion in the receiver's processor and that only a few receiver/processors are able to receive DSD directly.  Only the 7100ES and 9000ES are able to do this from Sony to my knowledge, since there is no D/A converting or compression until the amp gets to the output stage.

    I am sure there are other receiver/processors that can receive the DSD signal, but there aren't many that I'm aware of.


       


    mykyll2727

    Rank: Sony Pro


    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas

      Posted: 2011-02-15 19:25

     When I began putting together my present main/reference system together, back when I first joined this site nearly 7yrs ago, it's setup was optimised for MCH SACD playback. I used nine SS-K90EDs to make full use of my STR-DA9000ES' playback abilities. The sound on great MCH SACD was awesome. Unfortunately I became quite disenchanted with mch SACD as I found that there just wasn't enough material of my liking out there. It was just too impractical for me to have such an elaborate and inconvienent setup dedicated to something that I devoted so little of my listening time to. I have since reconfigured my system and simplified it. It is now 7ch, I replaced the ctr channel K90 with a SS-CNK10ED and mch playback is geared toward movies. My mains are maximized for stereo music. 

     IMHO where SCAD truly shines is in great mch playback. But there in lies it's inherent problem. It takes space and money to really do it right. Not many people have the resources for it. It's a niche market. A rich niche too.

     I still love 2ch SACD as overall it's quality is better than RBCD, but it still requires a greater expense, in general, (some RBCD playback can be astronomically expensive) over RBCD playback. Given that RBCD continues to close the SQ gap with SACD I ponder SACD's future._mykl


       
    sterling1

    Rank: Sony Addict


    Joined: Nov 16, 2010
    Posts: 237
    From: Louisville, KY

      Posted: 2011-02-15 19:46

    I'm looking forward to hooking up my TA-P9000ES to the OPPO 95 when it hits the street. That will be multi-channel SACD the way it was meant to be.


       
    mykyll2727

    Rank: Sony Pro


    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas

      Posted: 2011-02-15 22:11

    • Member Quote

    On 2011-02-15 19:46, sterling1 wrote:
    I'm looking forward to hooking up my TA-P9000ES to the OPPO 95 when it hits the street. That will be multi-channel SACD the way it was meant to be.


    It should sound awesome. Be sure to keep us posted._mykl


       
    scott1019

    Rank: Sonyphile


    Joined: Aug 07, 2010
    Posts: 543
    From: USA>>Ohio

      Posted: 2011-02-16 07:24

    I bet that would be great. My i.Link equipped Pioneer ELITE 59AVi coupled to my Pioneer ELITE 55TXi has yielded the best result for all possible forms of media. The 59AVi is a notch above any of the Oppo DVD players especially on the audio side. The 55TXi has a robust amplifier and I am quite pleased with it. A notch above most of the 2002 and newer Sony ES receivers.

    The NC555ES changer I just sold was the only player to give it a run for its money for SACD playback via its analog outs, and I liked the 5-disk changer, but the poor video playback sealed the deal for me, so I sold it. Also, I do not have an extensive SACD collection, so it makes no sense having a 5-disk changer.

    I having a bit of seller's remorse and would like to get my hands on a SACDmods NC555ES one-day to compare.



       
    mykyll2727

    Rank: Sony Pro


    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas

      Posted: 2011-02-17 01:37

     scott1019_If you're interested in one of Matt's Sony units, for sound quality and since the video of the NC555ES is moot to you, I'd advise one his other Sony units. For a changer it would be his SCD-C555ES(his personal reference for many years), for a single disc unit it would be his DVP-NS9100ES which he felt was the best sounding Sony unit that he ever made. It was a more expensive mod but he offered balanced outs on it. I originally bought my 9100 with the intention of having him mod it because of that and my previous experience with him. But after I had the unit for awhile decided agaist it because of the 9100s excrutiateingly slow, at least to me, response to commands. That with it being a single disc player I knew I wouldn't be happy with it as my reference unit. Thus my decision on a SCD-XA9000ES. I conceded XLRs for iLink. Someday though I would love to have a great silver player with XLRs.  

      Once in a blue moon his units show up on Audiogon. BTW the last seller that I saw there for one of Matt's 9100s claimed that he had owned both Matt's and a Modwright 9100 and that Matt's unit was sonically on par. Quite a statement considering the sonic excellence of the Modwright unit. But then he was selling his afterall and it could've been just hype. But I do know of one owner of Matt's 9100 and he adores it. I sincerely doubt you'd be disappointed with the SQ of any of his units. When it comes to SACD changers his are certainly among the very best.

       When you're ready I'd suggest looking to Agon and probably posting an ad there for one if one's not available at the time._mykl


       
    mykyll2727

    Rank: Sony Pro


    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas

      Posted: 2011-02-17 01:50

    • Member Quote

    On 2011-02-15 01:03, David_S wrote:
    .  It might be personal taste but it seems that some SACDs have the MCH tracks included just so the 5.1 label can be put on the cover.  


      I agree that too often some mch SACD use the extra channels for "tricks" ( this seems to be esp. true of rock titles) rather than to create the ambiance of the live experience which is where I feel mch SACD is at it's best. The better classical mch SACD seem to get this right much more often and it creates a wonderfully immersive experience. Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms is one of the notable exceptions of rock titles._mykl


       
    scott1019

    Rank: Sonyphile


    Joined: Aug 07, 2010
    Posts: 543
    From: USA>>Ohio

      Posted: 2011-02-17 06:49

    Before Matt got sent out to duty in the Navy he spoke very highly of the NC555ES as well.

    I will have to look into the XA9000ES, its not a model I'm too familiar with.

    [ This message was edited by: scott1019 on 2011-02-18 20:26 ]


       
    mykyll2727

    Rank: Sony Pro


    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas

      Posted: 2011-02-17 23:05

     The DVP-NC555ES was made in 2003. The SCD XA-9000ES was Sony's flagship SACD player of the same year. With a MSRP of $3000 it was meant to be the mate and sonic match to the $4500 STR-DA9000ES. Hence the iLink connection. 

     I don't see how the NC555ES could have been assembled from parts from the 3100ES and 9100ES since they weren't produced until two years later._mykl 


       
    David_S

    Rank: Sony Legend


    Joined: Aug 03, 2004
    Posts: 905
    From: BC, Canada

      Posted: 2011-02-17 23:58

    The transport assembly is new for the 3100ES & the 9100ES uses the exact same transport assembly.



    -----------------
    TA- E77ES E80ES E1000ESD E9000ES
    TA- N77ES F555ES, ST-S730ES
    RM- AV3000 AX1400 (2)AX4000
    STR- DA4ES DA3100ES (2)DA5700ES (2)GX10ES
    DVP- (3)NS999ES NS3100ES CX777ES
    CDP-X303ES, CDP-M555ES
    MDS-JA20ES, TC-K717ES, DTC-690


       
    dontsleep33
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sonyphile


    Joined: May 03, 2008
    Posts: 742
    From: MG,Brazil

      Posted: 2011-02-18 00:04

    • Member Quote

    On 2011-02-15 01:03, David_S wrote:


    I agree with mykyll2727's statement "The vast majority of RBCDs are not of that high a quality".  The gap in sound quality between a bad RBCD & good RBCD becomes more apparent with every improvement in the audio system.



    -----------------



    I have to disagree and say that bad cd mastering is very apparent to me even on the most entry level equipment.It's not a "fidelity" issue here.It's a technique used from the microphones all the way up to the last thing that makes a finished cd or sacd,LP orDVD-audio disc "finished" for that matter.



    -----------------



         
    David_S

    Rank: Sony Legend


    Joined: Aug 03, 2004
    Posts: 905
    From: BC, Canada

      Posted: 2011-02-18 10:11

    I agree with the "technique used".  I have bought some "improved" reissues of CDs that I already had.  The earlier version often sounds much better.

    Reissues usually have the average sound level boosted and are harsher to listen to.  There are exceptions to this, the exceptions are usually audiophile reissues engineered by skilled people like Hoffman.

    I have learned the hard way when it comes to buying reissues.  Now I try to restrict my purchases of reissues to high quality audiophile CDs or SACDs.  These cost more but many other reissues aren't worth the purchase.



    -----------------
    TA- E77ES E80ES E1000ESD E9000ES
    TA- N77ES F555ES, ST-S730ES
    RM- AV3000 AX1400 (2)AX4000
    STR- DA4ES DA3100ES (2)DA5700ES (2)GX10ES
    DVP- (3)NS999ES NS3100ES CX777ES
    CDP-X303ES, CDP-M555ES
    MDS-JA20ES, TC-K717ES, DTC-690


       
    mykyll2727

    Rank: Sony Pro


    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas

      Posted: 2011-02-18 20:10

       I too have found that many "remastered" CDs have only had their sound levels boosted and indeed sound worse. In these instances I feel it's just a marketing scheme to get more sales. unfortunately it leaves buyers with two versions of the same CD where the new one actually has an inferior sound. But also I found some where there has been an improvement. Sometimes quite dramatically so. Difficult to know which to have (which is particularly distressing in these economic times) unless you can find some reliable reviews._Mykl


       
    mykyll2727

    Rank: Sony Pro


    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas

      Posted: 2011-02-18 20:15

    • Member Quote

    On 2011-02-17 23:58, David_S wrote:
    The transport assembly is new for the 3100ES & the 9100ES uses the exact same transport assembly.



    -----------------



    I'm still confused. Wouldn't it be that the 3100/9100es models were built from existing 555ES parts rather than the other way around?_mykl


       
    scott1019

    Rank: Sonyphile


    Joined: Aug 07, 2010
    Posts: 543
    From: USA>>Ohio

      Posted: 2011-02-18 20:30

    I revised my earlier post as I too was confused at my remarks. Yes, parts used in the NC555ES were "carried-over" into the 3100ES/9100ES.


       
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