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Why are SACD's soo much better? |
scott1019
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 543
From: USA>>Ohio
 |  Posted: 2011-02-14 17:32
Having recently purchased a few SACDs and borrowed a few from the library, I would like to learn more about this medium before making a serious commitment and getting a lot of content.
Besides the technical reasons, is there an inherent reason why a SACD created with the same exact source material as a standard CD will have any difference in sound quality with all other things being equal?
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STR-DB930, STR-GX10ES, TA-E1000ESD, TA-N110, CDP-C701ES, DVP-NC555ES, Playstation 3 (60 GB).
[ This message was edited by: scott1019 on 2011-02-15 17:14 ]
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sterling1
Rank: Sony Addict
Joined: Nov 16, 2010
Posts: 223
From: Louisville, KY
 | Posted: 2011-02-14 18:12
I've got a Sony DVP-S9000ES. I cannot hear, or distinguish SACD's from CD's of the same material. Perhaps, that's why I have not put much into building an SACD library. Today, I've succumbed to iTunes via USB from PC to Creative Sound Blaster X-FI HD to S/PDIF Toslink DVD input on my Sony TA-E9000ES. It sounds real good.
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jehill
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Senior Advisor
Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 13820
From: Sewell, NJ
 | Posted: 2011-02-14 18:13
Your last statement says it all. The current crop of Sony BD players output the SACD audio channels via the HDMI output.
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scott1019
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 543
From: USA>>Ohio
| Posted: 2011-02-14 18:18
On 2011-02-14 18:13, jehill wrote:
Your last statement says it all. The current crop of Sony BD players output the SACD audio channels via the HDMI output.
This may be true, but I have yet to hear from anyone who can verify whether or not its sent via DSD or LPCM. Since most modern receivers convert everything to LPCM anyways and aren't able to recognize DSD, isn't this a moot point?
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
 | Posted: 2011-02-14 23:38
Great MCH SACD played thru iLink is still the best sounding audio playback I've yet to hear. IMHO if you can't hear it that way then analog outs are best if the player's quality is there. Quality SACD (2ch or mch) played from a unit with a quality build, DACs, transport, etc. is still sonically superior to all but the very, very, best RBCD. The vast majority of RBCDs are not of that high a quality. Some of the 24 bit Cds out there are closing the gap. In truth though I have a few 16 bit Japan release CDs that are on par with all but the very finest stereo SACDs I have._mykl
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David_S
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 03, 2004
Posts: 769
From: BC, Canada
 | Posted: 2011-02-15 01:03
I do not have iLink capability & cannot comment on it, but I prefer the sound of some of my MCH SACDs played in 2ch mode. It might be personal taste but it seems that some SACDs have the MCH tracks included just so the 5.1 label can be put on the cover. You should give them a listen in both 2ch & MCH modes to see which you prefer.
I agree with mykyll2727's statement "The vast majority of RBCDs are not of that high a quality". The gap in sound quality between a bad RBCD & good RBCD becomes more apparent with every improvement in the audio system.
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TA- E77ES E80ES E1000ESD N77ES F555ES
RM- AV3000 AX1400 (2)AX4000
SDP-EP9ES, ST-S730ES
STR- DA4ES DA3100ES (2)DA5700ES (2)GX10ES
DVP- (3)NS999ES NS3100ES CX777ES
CDP-X303ES, CDP-M555ES
MDS-JA20ES, TC-K717ES, DTC-690
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scott1019
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 543
From: USA>>Ohio
| Posted: 2011-02-15 11:03
When listening to the same source material on both a RBCD and a SACD I can hear no difference with all other things equal.
Only when you have a system in which DSD can be utilized will any of this extra information translate into great fidelity. Even then you are at the mercy of the design constraints of the equipment.
I have yet to hear a SACD that sounds bad, and I agree that most RBCDs sound bad, but there are some that sound every bit as good as a SACD. It all depends on who did the mastering.
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mhedges
Premium Member
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 722
From: Ithaca, NY
 | Posted: 2011-02-15 14:27
On 2011-02-14 17:32, scott1019 wrote:
Unless the processor being used is able to receive the DSD signal via i.Link or HDMi, you are still at the mercy of the bandwidth of a standard Toslink.
I don't want to beat a dead horse but SACD does NOT use Toslink or digital coax. In fact, virtually all SACD players have no digital output while playing SACD.
If you want real SACD you have to use the players analog outs, or iLink if your player/receiver has it.
Mark
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scott1019
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 543
From: USA>>Ohio
| Posted: 2011-02-15 17:07
I didn't mean to be misleading. What I meant to say is that without a receiver able to utilize DSD via i.Link or HDMi, the rest of the information provided to the receiver is worthless since it will be compressed at the same rate as a signal coming from a Toslink.. .
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-02-15 18:47
On 2011-02-15 17:07, scott1019 wrote:
I didn't mean to be misleading. What I meant to say is that without a receiver able to utilize DSD via i.Link or HDMi, the rest of the information provided to the receiver is worthless since it will be compressed at the same rate as a signal coming from a Toslink.. .
If I understand you correctly I think I may understand your difficulty differentiateing between the two. If SACD is not being played thru analog outs, iLink (or some version of it), or HDMI then what you're getting played is the CD layer not the SACD layer._mykl
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scott1019
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 543
From: USA>>Ohio
| Posted: 2011-02-15 19:14
Yes, I understand this, but few receivers have the capability of receiving the DSD signal via HDMi or I.Link and the end result is no different than sending a RBCD's 44.1 kHz, 16-bit PCM via Toslink. Granted the sampling rate will be higher, closer to what DVD-audio is, but for 2 channel playback I cannot see the benefit since the "extra" information will not have any audible difference.
I understand SACDs application for multi-channel recordings, but even then how is it better than DVD-audio since the original DSD track is converted to LPCM at some point in the processing. Analog outs are still the best way to go since the processor knows what to do with them and doesn't convert it or compress it. However, to my understanding most processors/receivers A/D/A convert which reduces the fidelity as well.
Its my understanding that the DSD HDMi and I.Link feed is compressed and converted into LPCM and then undergoes a D/A conversion in the receiver's processor and that only a few receiver/processors are able to receive DSD directly. Only the 7100ES and 9000ES are able to do this from Sony to my knowledge, since there is no D/A converting or compression until the amp gets to the output stage.
I am sure there are other receiver/processors that can receive the DSD signal, but there aren't many that I'm aware of.
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-02-15 19:25
When I began putting together my present main/reference system together, back when I first joined this site nearly 7yrs ago, it's setup was optimised for MCH SACD playback. I used nine SS-K90EDs to make full use of my STR-DA9000ES' playback abilities. The sound on great MCH SACD was awesome. Unfortunately I became quite disenchanted with mch SACD as I found that there just wasn't enough material of my liking out there. It was just too impractical for me to have such an elaborate and inconvienent setup dedicated to something that I devoted so little of my listening time to. I have since reconfigured my system and simplified it. It is now 7ch, I replaced the ctr channel K90 with a SS-CNK10ED and mch playback is geared toward movies. My mains are maximized for stereo music.
IMHO where SCAD truly shines is in great mch playback. But there in lies it's inherent problem. It takes space and money to really do it right. Not many people have the resources for it. It's a niche market. A rich niche too.
I still love 2ch SACD as overall it's quality is better than RBCD, but it still requires a greater expense, in general, (some RBCD playback can be astronomically expensive) over RBCD playback. Given that RBCD continues to close the SQ gap with SACD I ponder SACD's future._mykl
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sterling1
Rank: Sony Addict
Joined: Nov 16, 2010
Posts: 223
From: Louisville, KY
| Posted: 2011-02-15 19:46
I'm looking forward to hooking up my TA-P9000ES to the OPPO 95 when it hits the street. That will be multi-channel SACD the way it was meant to be.
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mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2011-02-15 22:11
On 2011-02-15 19:46, sterling1 wrote:
I'm looking forward to hooking up my TA-P9000ES to the OPPO 95 when it hits the street. That will be multi-channel SACD the way it was meant to be.
It should sound awesome. Be sure to keep us posted._mykl
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scott1019
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 07, 2010
Posts: 543
From: USA>>Ohio
| Posted: 2011-02-16 07:24
I bet that would be great. My i.Link equipped Pioneer ELITE 59AVi coupled to my Pioneer ELITE 55TXi has yielded the best result for all possible forms of media. The 59AVi is a notch above any of the Oppo DVD players especially on the audio side. The 55TXi has a robust amplifier and I am quite pleased with it. A notch above most of the 2002 and newer Sony ES receivers.
The NC555ES changer I just sold was the only player to give it a run for its money for SACD playback via its analog outs, and I liked the 5-disk changer, but the poor video playback sealed the deal for me, so I sold it. Also, I do not have an extensive SACD collection, so it makes no sense having a 5-disk changer.
I having a bit of seller's remorse and would like to get my hands on a SACDmods NC555ES one-day to compare.
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