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    Moderated By: Maxxwire
    Agoraquest Forum Index » » Amp/Receiver/Speakers/Connections/Cables
      
    Today´s ES - situation in Europe impossible....? Dashboard
    Replies: 9 | Views: 4,135
    Last Reply: January 7, 2011, 2:43 am

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    Maxxwire | parney | David_S | ShadowLord | ES_RevengeII | TMC |
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    Author Today´s ES - situation in Europe impossible....?
    TMC

    Rank: Sony Addict


    Joined: Nov 29, 2010
    Posts: 184
    From: Gothenburg, Sweden

      Posted: 2011-01-05 10:34

    Hi all!

    It really sucks when it comes to Sonys idea of not giving any information on internet for the todays ES-range here in Europe...

    I can´t find any specs, any information about which dealers who is selling Sony in my country and the only information I´ll get is that I have a "Sony Center" 420 km from where I live...

    Is this marketing when the brain is in order or what´s going on here?

    Does the situation look the same in the US and elsewhere or is it just in Sweden we just find Sony when it comes to a couple of hundred of watts in a small 5.1-system for $500 which probably only scares people from Sony when they will upgrade in the future? Does these systems sell in a Hifi-store? No way, they are sold in a SUPERMARKET.... my gosh!

    -----------------
    Best Regards

    TMC

    Impressed by Sony ES since 1987!

    N.B Looking for a TA-N77ES, TA-N80ES or TA-N90ES!!!

    CDP-338ESD
    CDP-X55ES (w RM-D590)
    CDP-C79ES
    DTC-55ES
    2xTA-E1000ESD (w RM-P1000)
    2xTA-N55ES
    TA-F730ES
    ST-S707ES


       


    ES_RevengeII

    Rank: Sony Addict


    Joined: Apr 26, 2010
    Posts: 181
    From: Canada

      Posted: 2011-01-05 14:40

    Yep they are doing pretty much the same thing in Canada/US it seems.  Though the information is online, even Sony's own site/store (SonyStyle) cannot sell these anymore.

    The thing is the information seems to be on the Sonystyle sites (.com and .ca) only because it was put there before the decision to go "high end dealer only" with ES products.  So the products are "deactivated" (i.e. you can't buy them from the site as mentioned) but the information is still there.

    This was discussed in this earlier agoraquest thread:
    http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=37380&forum=51

    Very very stupid move by Sony IMO.  If they keep this up into the DAx700ES models then perhaps the information will disappear from the internet here, like it has over there. 

    In the US however, grey market units are still easily found on sites like eBay, as evidenced in this thread:
    http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=37292&forum=51&start=15&select_page_number=2


       
    TMC

    Rank: Sony Addict


    Joined: Nov 29, 2010
    Posts: 184
    From: Gothenburg, Sweden

      Posted: 2011-01-05 15:16

    Just to clearify; I´m not mean to be rude but I´m really frustrated about this. I have also found some information about the products on Sony sites abroad but I think it is really strange when it is easier for me to find a official product leaflet or user manual with correct specifications on the internet for a 20 year old Sony ES model than it is if I would like to find the same for the models Sony is offering today?

    I would accept if the national Sony sites would show what installer/delar to contact in a very easy way but it seems to me that they aren´t even try to being interested in the customer?

    An example is when the national Swedish Home Cinema Magazine newly reviewed the STR-DA3600ES they wrote that more information about the STR-DAseries could be found at the Swedish Sony homepage but visiting that site only inform about all the former members of the ES-series which all are stated as discontinued...

    I´m very well aware of that my country is very small, but when I compared the national homepages from different A/V-manufacturers everyone are eager to inform in very much detail about models, specifications, reviews, where to buy and their former discontinued model versions / vintage models from years back; Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, Marantz, Denon, NAD - wouldn´t Sony want to be a competitor to these brands when it comes to get the customers on the hook?

    Thanx for now - over and out!



    -----------------
    Best Regards

    TMC

    Impressed by Sony ES since 1987!

    N.B Looking for a TA-N77ES, TA-N80ES or TA-N90ES!!!

    CDP-338ESD
    CDP-X55ES (w RM-D590)
    CDP-C79ES
    DTC-55ES
    2xTA-E1000ESD (w RM-P1000)
    2xTA-N55ES
    TA-F730ES
    ST-S707ES


       
    Maxxwire
    Moderator
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Adept


    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26057
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA

      Posted: 2011-01-05 15:58

    Although I don't think that it is a very wise move it sounds like Sony has returned to the strict marketing policies that they had in place up thru the 1990's when the only place that we could buy Sony ES gear around here was at a place called Northwest Sony Only although the non-ES lines were available at a number of other brick and mortar stores around town, but nor the ES line. It may have been different elsewhere.

    Back in 1980 when I bought my Sony STR V-55 Receiver there was only 1 store in town which back then was Chelsea Audio which was also the designated McIntosh dealer which was then the sole authorized Sony dealer and there were a total of 6 of these Receivers that they were alloted by Sony to sell back when higher end Sony products were very scarce and difficult to obtain.

    If memory serves it wasn't until about 2002 or 2003 around the time that Sony released the first generation of Digital Receivers that huge amounts of Sony ES equipment both legitimate and gray flooded the market and started showing up online which broke the monopoly that Sony had given the authorized Sony ES and there was finally a way for people around the world to get rock bottom prices on Sony ES equipment online.

    ~Maxx~



    -----------------
    A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!



    The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930


         
    ShadowLord
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Fanatic


    Joined: Oct 14, 2004
    Posts: 386
    From: LA, Ca

      Posted: 2011-01-05 16:17

    This is sadly to be expected. When they let everyone buy the ES equipment they created a number of problems:

    1. Brand Dilution: The Sony ES line was being sold alongside the Sony junk by the same set of clueless people who had no idea what they were talking about. This created a bad image for the product so that even high quality receiver's, BDs, etc. were looked down upon.
    2. Price Wars: The authorized dealer's took the brunt of this. They had guys who new their Sony but were forced to sell at the MSRP. Where as the non-auth and ebay guys were under cutting by HUNDREDS of dollars! So people did their browsing at the authorized dealer and bought on e-bay.
    3. Support: Sony's ES support has been very generous (flawed yes but generous nonetheless). I've never had a problem getting my stuff serviced w/o a receipt of any kind. And even when they couldn't fix my DVP-NS9100ES (hence flawed) they replaced it w/ a brand new BDP-5000ES.
    4. Customer satisfaction: People paid 2500 for 6400ES and have no idea why? What it does, how to use it, or how to even set it up! Hopefully, a pro installation would solve these issues!

    All of this was unsustainable. You can't have a premium brand but w/ economy market practices. So, the change... The only question is will Sony begin improving their ES line up or will they continue to sell the same low quality (compared to the Sony's of the 80s and 90s) products with the stricter policies!


       
    parney

    Rank: Sonyphile


    Joined: Jul 23, 2003
    Posts: 523
    From:

      Posted: 2011-01-05 17:43



    Supply and demand thats what the market is we all seen Sony play this game with the playstation 2 might work in the short term.Why not create a false shortage of product and then they can increase the price with never having to make the product better.I used to make a living in Manufacturing ,now I work in the transportation industry.The internet is not going to go away and neither is China's economic might.Unless Yamaha,Onkyo,Pioneer,Denon and Nad ect. follow Sonys lead and do the same thing which I highley doubt this move will prove to be a major blunder. I love my Sony ES products and I'm not at all interested in their cheaper line.My question is when will we see an Agoraquest site for Onkyo and the rest of the compatition?



       
    David_S

    Rank: Sony Legend


    Joined: Aug 03, 2004
    Posts: 905
    From: BC, Canada

      Posted: 2011-01-05 22:50

    I had also noticed trhe disappearance of ES products from Sony Canada & Sony US web sites.  Most knowledgable consumers get product information off the web now.

    Elimination online sales might be be one thing, but elimination online product information for the ES line could be the death of the ES line in the modern market.  Other manufacturers have online information for their high end lines.



    -----------------
    TA- E77ES E80ES E1000ESD E9000ES
    TA- N77ES F555ES, ST-S730ES
    RM- AV3000 AX1400 (2)AX4000
    STR- DA4ES DA3100ES (2)DA5700ES (2)GX10ES
    DVP- (3)NS999ES NS3100ES CX777ES
    CDP-X303ES, CDP-M555ES
    MDS-JA20ES, TC-K717ES, DTC-690


       
    ES_RevengeII

    Rank: Sony Addict


    Joined: Apr 26, 2010
    Posts: 181
    From: Canada

      Posted: 2011-01-06 08:11

    • Member Quote

    On 2011-01-05 16:17, ShadowLord wrote:
    This is sadly to be expected. When they let everyone buy the ES equipment they created a number of problems:

    1. Brand Dilution: The Sony ES line was being sold alongside the Sony junk by the same set of clueless people who had no idea what they were talking about. This created a bad image for the product so that even high quality receiver's, BDs, etc. were looked down upon.

    I see what you're saying but I think this is a name Sony more made for themselves in the "DE" receiver days of the 90s--those receivers were, for the most part, outright terrible.  Having the ES more available, made at least some people realise Sony did make some decent gear.  ES is still branded as Sony ES.  If they really wanted to distance the products they'd call them something else like is done with Onkyo->Integra.

    • Member Quote

    On 2011-01-05 16:17, ShadowLord wrote:
    2. Price Wars: The authorized dealer's took the brunt of this. They had guys who new their Sony but were forced to sell at the MSRP. Where as the non-auth and ebay guys were under cutting by HUNDREDS of dollars! So people did their browsing at the authorized dealer and bought on e-bay.

    I'm not sure how price wars are bad for the consumer?  lol.  However many US authorised e-tailers like J&R, Vanns, Onecall, were able to sell Sony ES receivers at prices at or better than the unauthorised stuff on eBay, and often times with free shipping to boot!
    • Member Quote

    4. Customer satisfaction: People paid 2500 for 6400ES and have no idea why? What it does, how to use it, or how to even set it up! Hopefully, a pro installation would solve these issues!

    There I agree, but the same could be said for a mainstream $300 receiver.  As a side note $2500 (the MSRP) for a 6400ES was way out there anyway.
    • Member Quote

    On 2011-01-05 16:17, ShadowLord wrote:
    All of this was unsustainable. You can't have a premium brand but w/ economy market practices. So, the change... The only question is will Sony begin improving their ES line up or will they continue to sell the same low quality (compared to the Sony's of the 80s and 90s) products with the stricter policies!

    That's what I'd like to know too...  Even the top-level 6400/5500/5600ES receivers are not  anywhere near the same class as anything you'd expect to be sold only in specialty shops (e.g. Krell, McIntosh, etc.).  Heck they're not even at the level of some of the high end stuff from more mainstream makers like Denon.  So how are they going to justify selling upper-mid-level gear in the sub $3k range, exclusively in specialised shops?  They're certainly not going to draw the crowd paying like $10k for amps in such shops; and the mainstream market will just forget about it because they can all buy Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer, Marantz, H/K, et al. from a wide variety of stores, as well as a big selection of online sellers.

    Going into 2011 and beyond this is the last thing that a manufacturer of higher-end-but-still-mainstream A/V gear wants to do.  Well unless they don't want to sell anything.  In an age where corporate Twitter/Facebook pages are the norm, where emails are maintained in every retailers database for mass email advertising, and where some companies only sell online, who the heck would want to get out of that and make their same products secretive and hard to obtain?  The vast majority of people aren't going to care and the result is just going to be severely reduced sales.

    [ This message was edited by: ES_RevengeII on 2011-01-06 08:12 ]


       
    ES_RevengeII

    Rank: Sony Addict


    Joined: Apr 26, 2010
    Posts: 181
    From: Canada

      Posted: 2011-01-06 08:21

    • Member Quote

    My question is when will we see an Agoraquest site for Onkyo and the rest of the compatition?

    Oh there already is one... It's called AVS forum, LOL.  You know where everyone hates Sony and loves to recommend buying anything other than Sony?  Where it's additionally like a support group for Onkyo buyers/owners?   They tell you to buy Onkyo which breaks in two days (or two days after the short warranty, at least) and then they recommend you buy an Onkyo refurb after that to replace it, lol.  Of course there are zillions of Onkyo refurbs out there too, you can guess why.

    Probably a little too harsh on Onkyo but anyone that browses around AVS should know what I'm talking about.

    [ This message was edited by: ES_RevengeII on 2011-01-06 08:22 ]


       
    ShadowLord
    Premium Member

    Rank: Sony Fanatic


    Joined: Oct 14, 2004
    Posts: 386
    From: LA, Ca

      Posted: 2011-01-07 02:43

    • Member Quote

    On 2011-01-06 08:11, ES_RevengeII wrote:
    I see what you're saying but I think this is a name Sony more made for themselves in the "DE" receiver days of the 90s--those receivers were, for the most part, outright terrible.  Having the ES more available, made at least some people realise Sony did make some decent gear.  ES is still branded as Sony ES.  If they really wanted to distance the products they'd call them something else like is done with Onkyo->Integra.


    If anything it would be the reverse. I.E. the ES line would still be Sony ES but the non-ES stuff would be Suny or some such. I think though what Sony is doing is to try and seperate the two lines physically and thereby cause a seperation in consumer's view...

    • Member Quote

    I'm not sure how price wars are bad for the consumer?  lol.  However many US authorised e-tailers like J&R, Vanns, Onecall, were able to sell Sony ES receivers at prices at or better than the unauthorised stuff on eBay, and often times with free shipping to boot!


    Oh its great for consumers but sucks for authorized dealers. And I don't know too many authorized dealers (e.g. crutchfield) whose prices were not a mirror of the Sony site.

    • Member Quote

    On 2011-01-06 08:11, ES_RevengeII wrote:
    There I agree, but the same could be said for a mainstream $300 receiver.  As a side note $2500 (the MSRP) for a 6400ES was way out there anyway.


    Yeah, but on a $300 receiver if it runs your speakers then as far as most people are concerned it is doing its job. The 6400ES is a POWERFUL piece of technology but it is hard to harness that power...

    • Member Quote

    On 2011-01-06 08:11, ES_RevengeII wrote:
    That's what I'd like to know too...  Even the top-level 6400/5500/5600ES receivers are not  anywhere near the same class as anything you'd expect to be sold only in specialty shops (e.g. Krell, McIntosh, etc.).


    And there in lies the real problem. The Sony ES line is not really anymore an ES line. There are exceptions: the DVP-NS9100ES, the BDP-5000ES but the ES mega disc changers, the low end ES amps, etc. are a joke. They are no better constructed then the non ES counterparts.


    -----------------
    KDL-55XBR8, HR23-700, Custom HTPC, SLV-R1000, PS3 80GB, BDP-S5000ES, DVP-CX777ES, STR-DA6400ES, TA-N90ESx2, TA-N9000ESx2, B&W 700s, PS-X555ES w/ Orotofon X5-MC & Sony HA-T10, TC-WA9ES, SEQ-333ES, DTC-2000ES.

    [ This message was edited by: ShadowLord on 2011-01-07 02:46 ]


       
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