| Author |
new ES line, lame uber lame. |
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25726
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
 |  Posted: 2007-07-26 00:29
On 2007-07-26 00:05, fanboyz wrote: If a unit has the same amplification dsp, it will be the same sounding.
Could you please share with us the extensive list of Receivers that you must have had to audition in order to be able to prove this theory of yours?
I've listened to a lot of Receivers myself including dozens of Sony Receivers all of them with Sony DSP and I've heard huge differences between them which were the kinds of differences that were far outside of the DSP Chip's ability to influence.
Three of those Sony Receivers were ones that I used in my own Audio System. All of them had Preamp sections that used Sony DSP and yet each of them had its own unique sonic signature which sounded very different than the others did.
Listening is a mandatory part of evaluating Audio equipment otherwise you're only jumping to conclusions just like it would be if someone said they had evaluated a Video Display based only on its specs without even watching it.
~Maxx~
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
ºCLICK ON PIC FOR PiPº
www.dabsoflight.com
[ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2007-07-26 06:35 ]
|
|
rb
Rank: Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2035
From: Canada
 | Posted: 2007-07-26 09:50
The DG1000 must be a heck of a deal if it uses the same high quality amplification as the 5200! Wow I did not know that thanks.
-----------------
rb
I listen to music in StereO
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25726
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-07-26 15:30
The DA5300ES puts up some excellent specs itself-
Sony STR DA5300ES
Reference Power Output
Measured at 8 ohms 20 Hz > 20 kHz Bandwidth @ 0.09% THD
FRONT(2): 120W + 120W
CENTER: 120W
SURROUND(2): 120W + 120W
SURROUND BACK(2): 120W + 120W
Power specs are traditionally meant to be used to accurately match amplification to speakers to insure that there is enough power to drive the speakers to a sufficient volume and meet the owner's expectation of a satisfying listening experiemce.
This can be easily calculated using tools like
The Homestead SPL Calculator or my pesonal favorite
The Crown Audio SPL Calculator.
These easy to use SPL Calculators take all of the guesswork out of knowing whether a Receiver has enough Output Power to run your speakers or not.
I ran through a couple of test calculations based on the basic average speaker efficiency of 90 dB SPL and the OSHA maximum safe listening guideline of 85 dB SPL.
An Audio system using 90 dB SPL efficient speakers all at a distance of 12 ft from the listening position and a desired listening level of 85 dB SPL the amount of Power required to drive the System allowing for an additional 6 dB of headroom for the Receiver is 20 Watts/ channel.
If the same 90 dB SPL efficient speakers were 20 feet from the listening position the amount of Power required to create 85dB SPL at the listening position and still have an additional 6 dB of headroom for the Receiver would be 62 watts/ channel.
I've owned the notoriously powerful Sony STR DB930 for almost 8 years now and unfortunately I have never been able to use most of its legedary power because if I turn it up past 2½ on the volume scale it blows me right out of the room!
Quite frankly if I had 1/2 as much of the power now availble from my Receiver I wouldn't even know it was gone.
The most important function of Power Specs is to serve as a guideline to help match the
Power Output capabilities of your Receiver to the Power requirements of your Speakers with a Receiver that also has exceptional Sound Quality and features that match the functionality of your A/V System.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
RWetmore
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 496
From: New Jersey
 | Posted: 2007-07-26 23:23
I don't buy it.
|
RWetmore
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 496
From: New Jersey
| Posted: 2007-07-26 23:25
The specs and builds of the new units are entry level ES quality and not even close to flagship quality. I don't doubt that they sound very good, BTW - that isn't the point.
[ This message was edited by: RWetmore on 2007-07-26 23:28 ]
|
fanboyz
Rank: Sony Addict
Joined: Apr 15, 2007
Posts: 237
From: minnesota
| Posted: 2007-07-26 23:58
the 5200 sounds great as does the dg1000, they got the same amplification.
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25726
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-07-27 00:33
On 2007-07-26 23:23, RWetmore wrote:
I don't buy it.
I did not invent the Crown Audio Calculator it has been used for years by both Professionals and well informed Audio Enthusiasts to calculate amplification Power needs and if they "buy it" then it is good enough for the rest of us to use to estimate power requirements because it is based on these universally accepted Mathematical Principals of Audio:
dBW = Lreq - Lsens + 20 * Log (D2/Dref) + HR
W = 10 to the power of (dBW / 10)
Where:
Lreq = required SPL at listener
Lsens = loudspeaker sensitivity (1W/1M)
D2 = loudspeaker-to-listener distance
Dref = reference distance
HR = desired amplifier headroom
dBW = ratio of power referenced to 1 watt
W = power required
~Maxx~
~Maxx~
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974! ºCLICK ON PIC FOR PiPº www.dabsoflight.com
[ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2007-07-27 01:20 ]
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25726
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-07-27 00:56
On 2007-07-26 23:25, RWetmore wrote:
The specs and builds of the new units are entry level ES quality and not even close to flagship quality. I don't doubt that they sound very good, BTW - that isn't the point.
The traditional ES Receivers measured 120wpc @ .05% THD 20-20k hz.
The DA5300ES measures 120wpc @..09% THD 20-20k hz.
Since both Receivers have been measured at 120 wpc then each of them will drive a set of 90 dB SPL speakers to a volume of over 113 dB SPL.
The only difference between the performance of these two Receivers would then be a matter of .04% THD which would be very difficult to detect in a room with a volume of over 113 dB SPL especially when THD's of less then 1.00% are undetectable to the human ear.
To cast dispersions on the sound quality of any piece of Audio equipment without listening to it first is complete nonsense!
The whole point of having modern Audio equipment is to enjoy its ability to create a clean, clear and lifelike sound quality at satisfying volumes and according to the highly dependable and totally accurate Crown Audio Calculator the DA5300ES will have no problem doing that in spades for most people!
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
RWetmore
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 496
From: New Jersey
| Posted: 2007-07-27 17:22
You're missing the point.
I guess the superior build quality of the 5ES was for nothing since no human can actually hear the improvement according to you. Or any other superiorly spec'd and built amplifier for that matter. Heck - why even make ES if a DG amp is just as good as any of the previous ES models. All that extra money Sony spent in previous years' models was 100% wasted since the human ear can't hear the improvement they provide.
If you want to continue to defend the drop in quality of these ES receivers over their predecessors be my guest. I never claimed they won't perform as advertised or are insufficient for most home theater needs.
Show me similar test results from the closed thread (STR-V555ES vs. DB 930) between the 3100ES and 3200ES and I'll gladly shut up. Until then, please stop trying to discredit claims I have not made.
[ This message was edited by: RWetmore on 2007-07-27 18:02 ]
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25726
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-07-27 18:34
On 2007-07-27 17:22, RWetmore wrote: I never claimed they won't perform as advertised or are insufficient for most home theater needs.
I'm so glad that we can at least agree on something, but then again we might not be as far apart at it might seem.
I do think that you misunderstood when I compared the virtually identical specs that Sony gives for the Classic Sony Analog ES Receivers and the DA5300ES after you stated that they were so vastly different in that I was trying not only to show how much Sony declares these generations of Receivers as having very similar Specs, but that with Sony's Specs no one could possibly prove that they are that much different from each other either.
Sorry for having had to be the one who pointed these things out, but your anger should more correctly be directed at Sony and their Specs, not at the person who put Sony's own Specs side by side and pointed out their very obvious similarities.
Seeing as how Sony's Specs are almost identical for each of these Receivers then if you want to find out exactly how much better the performance of the Classic Sony ES Receivers are than the DA5300ES then you will need to track down the independant Benchtest Specs for both the Classic Sony ES Receivers and the DA5300ES and compare them because this is the only way that you will ever be able find out exactly what the actual amount of the differences are between these Receivers otherwise its pure speculation and guesswork. Its a real hassle to do, but its the only way to know absolutely and beyond any shadow of a doubt from an unbiased source how the Classic Sony ES Receivers and DA5300ES differ in real world performance.
Please don't get me wrong I have been recommending Classic Sony ES Receivers to people with very large power needs ever since I became a Member here and I have considered myself a huge fan of the DA5ES ever since its premier in November of 2001 after sweating out the 6 month delay of its North American release.
You will have to search long and hard to find anyone who has recommended the Sony Classic ES Analog Receivers more often than I have at Agoraquest over the last 5 years.
I was quite offended when the DA5300ES was viciously attacked as being "lame" without anyone even having heard or consulting its Benchtest Specs just as offended as you were when you mistakenly thought that I was directy equating the all around performance quality of the Classic ES Receivers with the DA5300ES simply because Sony's Factory Specs on these Receivers are almost identical to each other.
All I want is to see people get the right Sony Receiver for their needs.
People who have extrordinarily large "paint peeling" power needs should have a Classic Sony ES Receiver.
People who with more moderate power needs who want all the latest SOTA A/V connectivity Sony has to offer would do very well with the DA5300ES.
I am confident that the perfect Receiver for almost anyone's A/V needs can be found somewhere in the Sony Extended Family of Classic ES and Current ES Receivers.
~Maxx~
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
ºCLICK ON PIC FOR PiPº
www.dabsoflight.com
[ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2007-07-28 00:22 ]
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25726
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-07-27 19:52
This is an excerpt from the 7/24/07 Cnet Review of the Sony DA5300ES which was written by a genuine experienced professional A/V Reviewer and shows how this Receiver really performs from someone who has spent some time with it!
Audio performance:
The STR-DA5300ES is certainly feature-filled, but the real test for any AV receiver is how it sounds. We're pleased to say the DA5300ES does not disappoint, offering up the kind of stellar sonics you'd expect for a receiver in this price range.
The STR-DA5300ES was up to the task when we had a listen to Queens of the Stone Age's latest, Era Vulgaris. While not as heavy as the earliest albums, the Queens still manage to pack quite a punch on this album, and the DA5300ES didn't flinch while delivering frontman Josh Homme's new riff-heavy tunes.
The STR-DA5300ES was also up to the task for more subtle discs like Duke Ellington's Money Jungle, doing an excellent job of delivering the fine details such as the tone of Charles Mingus' acoustic bass.
The STR-DA5300ES was also up to the task with Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest on Blu-ray, which delivers a lush soundtrack in uncompressed 5.1 PCM. The STR-DA5300ES deftly delivered all the detail on Dead Man's Chest, which certainly doesn't go light in terms of sonic impact. The sequences on the ship do a great job of letting you hear every creak of the boards and crash of the ocean.
Even when we cranked up the volume, we didn't notice any strain or harshness. The DA5300ES won't disappoint movie buffs.
The bottom line: With six HDMI inputs, an intuitive graphical user interface, and excellent audio and video quality, the Sony STR-DA5300ES raises the bar on what to expect from a high-end AV receiver.
~Maxx~
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
ºCLICK ON PIC FOR PiPº
www.dabsoflight.com
[ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2007-07-27 20:14 ]
|
RWetmore
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 496
From: New Jersey
| Posted: 2007-07-27 20:20
Already read the review before this thread was even started.
[ This message was edited by: RWetmore on 2007-07-27 20:22 ]
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25726
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-07-27 21:11
Its too bad that as the hugely dedicated Sonyfan you are you didn't tell us about this absolutely glowing review of the Sony STR DA5300ES earlier.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25726
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-07-28 00:52
[ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2007-07-28 06:03 ]
|
RWetmore
Rank: Sonyphile
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 496
From: New Jersey
| Posted: 2007-07-28 08:57
On 2007-07-27 21:11, Maxxwire wrote:
Its too bad that as the hugely dedicated Sonyfan you are you didn't tell us about this absolutely glowing review of the Sony STR DA5300ES earlier.
~Maxx~
It was only out one day prior to the starting of this thread.
|
