| Author |
Build Quality & DYI Mods |
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
 |  Posted: 2006-08-20 02:23
The other day I was helping my Tech Brendt get a 70lb. $6,000 Audio Research D-400 Mk2 250 wpc Solid State Stereo Power Amp onto his workbench for some repair.
As he popped the top on it I was shocked to see that this highly regarded "High End" Power Amp was filled with inexpensive 50 cent and $1 Wima MKP (Polypropylene) caps throught the entire signal path because I have a $1,200 piece at home that uses these exact same caps! They are not bad caps at all its just that I had expected that a $6,000 Power Amp would use something a little more upscale like Solen MKP Caps that's all.
I was also thinking that I might have possibly seen some much better quality caps like the Polystyrene Caps that my Power Amp (which only cost about 1/3 the price of the Audio Research D-400) uses in its signal path.
This is not unusual though. I have seen many pieces of "High End" Audio equipment in the +/-$4,000 price range that had an economized build quality inside. I guess what they say about not judging books by their cover also appies to Audio equipment.
I guess the moral of the story is that you don't always get what you pay for unless you pop the top and check things out first.
I read an interview once with the owner of a High End Audio equipment manufacturer who said "For this industry on average 40% of the production cost of High End Audio equipment goes toward making it look expensive". Which goes a long way toward explaining the lean build qualities I've seen.
As far as spending our hard earned money to improve build quality goes I think that DIY Mods are the best way of improving performance and sound quality because it allows you total control to take the sonics of your gear in the direction that you want to go instead of hoping that some Audio equipment designer had exactly your ear and Musical tastes in mind when he designed his equipment.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
|
rb
Rank: Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2035
From: Canada
 | Posted: 2006-08-20 13:17
Maxx you raise an interesting point. What you discovered when you seen inside the AR amp is not unuasual in high end gear I believe. If we were to examine a typical op-amp inside a piece of gear say one made by NJM which is quite common in a lot of gear including Sony. The cost of the op-amp to the manaufacturer may be $5.00. By the time that piece of gear is built and sold that op-amp will add to the cost between 5 and 10 times it's original cost. Up to say $50. To me it makes more sense to buy a $50 Burr Brown op-amp and have it installed by a modman. To buy a piece of gear that already has that op-amp installed would add $250 to $500 to the cost of the unit using the same 5 to 10 times the original cost mark up ratio. How many op-amps would typically be in a modern analog receiver or pre/pro? The situation would be even more pronounced with caps. What would having a $10 BlackGate cap instead of that $1 Wima cap add to the cost of a unit?
DIY and professional modding is the way to get to the high end affordably. Look at the companies that are taking Sony SA-CD/DVD players and are making then "true" state of the art pieces by swapping critical parts. If a modman can take a Sony player and make it world class for $2500 where is the value in a $10,000 CD player. Chances are the modded unit is using higher quailty parts then the "stock" 10 grand jobbie.
Because of how well Sony source components respond to modding, I've often wondered how a Sony ES receiver like a DA5000/7100/9000ES would turn out after getting the full on treatment from someone like Chris Johnson or Dan Wright. Their talent goes beyond just simple parts swapping.
-----------------
rb
I listen to music in StereO
|
mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
 | Posted: 2006-08-21 13:42
rb_If I remember correctly you said in a post here, some time ago, that Chris Johnson felt that any receiver could benefit from a certain upgrade/mod. Do you remember what it was?_MMMike
|
mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2006-08-21 13:54
Maxx_I think rb makes a good point but still I find it unpalatable that a $6k to $10k amp would use virtually the same quality parts as one costing $1k. For example you pointed out the caps in the Verastarr SSA 64 to me. (I told you of the phone conversation I had with Mike Powell of Verastarr and how I found it, shall we say, a bit odd.  ) But he also owns Hot Rod Mods that uses parts from companies like Black Gate, Rubycon, Jenson, etc. How much more could it cost him to use those parts instead of Wima and RelCaps? I can only imagine the difference it would make. Perhaps I should ask him. _MMMike
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2006-08-21 14:37
On 2006-08-21 13:54, mykyll2727 wrote: For example you pointed out the caps in the Verastarr SSA 64 to me. (I told you of the phone conversation I had with Mike Powell of Verastarr and how I found it, shall we say, a bit odd. ) But he also owns Hot Rod Mods that uses parts from companies like Black Gate, Rubycon, Jenson, etc. How much more could it cost him to use those parts instead of Wima and RelCaps? I can only imagine the difference it would make. Perhaps I should ask him. _MMMike
MMMike- How much more would it cost to use those more expensive parts? I think it has a lot to do with how a $10,000 Amp could cost $5,000 a few weeks later and then drop to $3,200?
This makes me wonder what the actual production cost of the piece actually is because if he's willing to sell the Amp for $3,200 you know he's still making money and the lower the production cost is the more the difference between a $1 Wima MKP cap and an $8 Solen MKP cap becomes.
The up side is that this guy didn't put anything over on you! Poor guy, he had no idea who he was dealing with!!
The sad part to all of this is that there is probably somebody out there who bought this Amp for the original $10,000 asking price.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2006-08-21 14:56
On 2006-08-21 13:42, mykyll2727 wrote: rb_If I remember correctly you said in a post here, some time ago, that Chris Johnson felt that any receiver could benefit from a certain upgrade/mod.
One of the unique benefits to doing aftermarket Modification is that you become the Audio designer and you can customize your equipment to make it sound like no other piece on the planet because you've designed it to be one of a kind!
I've seen guys do Black Gate electrolytic cap mods on their Sony equipment and get fantastic results in the way of better performance and improved sonics!
I think if someone has had a piece of equipment for a while and they are looking for an upgrade a simple cap Mod is a lot less expensive than a new piece of gear and who knows the Modded piece could very well turn out to be better sounding than a more expensive new model is.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2006-08-21 16:29
Maxx_Richard Kern can tell a person anything they could possibly want to know about Black Gates and how to use them. There is definitely an art to the proper use of aftermarket parts._MMMike
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2006-08-21 18:32
On 2006-08-21 16:29, mykyll2727 wrote: There is definitely an art to the proper use of aftermarket parts.
You've got that right! One day at the Audio shop Richard explained to me in very exacting detail how he takes all of the Black Gate caps he gets and individually measures the value of each cap to insure that he only uses the ones that exactly match specification because a tollerance of +/- 10% just won't make it into one of his Mods.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2006-08-21 19:25
Maxx_It's because of a conversation I had with Richard that I've come to think that perhaps I should temper my cynicism when it comes to audio folks. But that Chicago upbringing is hard to shake. And Vegas only steeled it more. (There have been and still are some serious scammers in this town. ) Richard insisted I do something that he said may very well make me not want his product. I was floored that he would say and do that. But then maybe he's a sly fox and figured that out of appreciation I'd be back. Actually, I know he was as sincere as could be,( What's more he was right too.) but there's that cynicism again. _MMMike
|
mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2006-08-21 19:31
BTW_Even though it's totally off topic I got those $25 IsoPads in today. It's my Friday, (I got to get some sleep) so I'll be able to give them a try tomorrow. I'll report my findings._MMMike
|
rb
Rank: Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2035
From: Canada
| Posted: 2006-08-22 01:02
On 2006-08-21 13:42, mykyll2727 wrote:
rb_If I remember correctly you said in a post here, some time ago, that Chris Johnson felt that any receiver could benefit from a certain upgrade/mod. Do you remember what it was?_MMMike
Besides the normal power supply upgrades big gains can be made in the digital input and analog output stages. He said that any receiver that uses op-amps, which would include the majority of them, have a lot of unlocked potential.
Here is a link to a company that modded Pioneer Elite receivers with great success. The guys who had their units modded posted a few threads over at AVS sometime back. Their units were transformed much the same way modded CD/DVD/SA-CD players are.
http://members.cox.net/alexhardware/modifications.htm
-----------------
rb
I listen to music in StereO
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2006-08-22 01:02
I assure everyone reading this that even though Richard Kern has a reputation for being one of the top Modmen in the world he is probably the most soft spoken, humble, and selfeffacing men I have ever met and that's really saying something in the oft times ego driven world that High End Audio can be.
The first time I ever talked to Richard he spent 20 minutes telling me about nearly every piece of Digital front end equipment that he had ever owned and how he had worked his way up to the Wadia 860 that he was running at the time.
He told me not only about each of their sound qualities, but about their build qualities as well and how that effected the sound of each piece.
After he walked out the owner of the Audio shop asked me "Do you know who that was whom you were talking to?"
I replied "No, who was he?"
The owner replied "That was Richard Kern."
I said "You mean Richard Kern of Audiomod?" The owner replied "The one and only!" This man is so meek and unassuming that I would never have guessed in million years that I had been talking to an internationally renown Modman.
I would urge anyone who is interested in modifying their Sony Player (which is Richard's speciality) that they contact him to see if he has a Mod design for their Model.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2006-08-22 01:16
On 2006-08-20 13:17, rb wrote: Because of how well Sony source components respond to modding, I've often wondered how a Sony ES receiver like a DA5000/7100/9000ES would turn out after getting the full on treatment from someone like Chris Johnson or Dan Wright.
Rick- I think that you are on to something here because just recently I saw a Carver Z-1600 Digital Power Amp which Dan Wright had done a considerable amount of Modification to.
This would indicate that there is a very real possibility of Modding Sony's already great Digital Receivers and taking them to the next level...or two...or beyond!
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
mykyll2727
Rank: Sony Pro
Joined: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 4171
From: Las Vegas
| Posted: 2006-08-22 21:29
On 2006-08-22 01:02, Maxxwire wrote:
I assure everyone reading this that even though Richard Kern has a reputation for being one of the top Modmen in the world he is probably the most soft spoken, humble, and selfeffacing men I have ever met and that's really saying something in the oft times ego driven world that High End Audio can be.
The first time I ever talked to Richard he spent 20 minutes telling me about nearly every piece of Digital front end equipment that he had ever owned and how he had worked his way up to the Wadia 860 that he was running at the time.
He told me not only about each of their sound qualities, but about their build qualities as well and how that effected the sound of each piece.
After he walked out the owner of the Audio shop asked me "Do you know who that was whom you were talking to?"
I replied "No, who was he?"
The owner replied "That was Richard Kern."
I said "You mean Richard Kern of Audiomod?" The owner replied "The one and only!" This man is so meek and unassuming that I would never have guessed in million years that I had been talking to an internationally renown Modman.
I would urge anyone who is interested in modifying their Sony Player (which is Richard's speciality) that they contact him to see if he has a Mod design for their Model.
~Maxx~
Maxx_I absolutely agree with you!!!! I've had the great pleasure to chat with Richard on the phone as well as exchange emails. He's amazingly knowledgeable (way above my head) and just one of the most sincere and down to earth people I've ever come across. His passion for audio and his sincere desire for others to fully enjoy the pleasure of our hobby is second to none. Even though he realised much of what he was saying was way above my head he never once talked down to me in any way. All he did was show an earnest desire for me to be able to fully enjoy my system. He has nothing but my highest respect and admiration._MMMike
|
Maxxwire
Moderator
Premium Member
Rank: Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2006-08-22 23:35
Rick- I am very familiar with Dan Wright's and Richard Kern's work because they are local Modmen, but I am not that familiar with Chris Johnson's work could you tell us more about what Modifications he specializes in?
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930
|
