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jishm
Sony Fan
Joined: Feb 21, 2003
Posts: 4
From: San Francisco Bay Area
 |  Posted: 2003-02-21 01:40
I don't know if anyone is sick of these "newbie" questions or not, but I hope you'll indulge me.
Some background:
- I bought an STR-DE885 receiver today.
- I have a DVP-S560D DVD player.
- I have a KV-32FS16 TV.
- My Polk RM6200 speaker set is on the way.
- This is my first home theater set-up and I don't consider myself a hardcore audiophile who can discern subtle differences in audio quality
My questions (finally!):
1) from DVD to Receiver: I intend to establish my audio connection via the digital coaxial connection - would there be a massive difference between getting a regular 75ohm cable, or should I invest in a digital coaxial cable?
2) from DVD to Receiver: aside from the option above, I can also connect audio using the 5.1ch connections ... is there any reason one would prefer this over a digital coax connection?
3) from Receiver to TV: I will have component connections ... will this deliver the video signal from my DVD player (whose video is input to the receiver via a component connection) AND video from my VCR (not connected to receiver via component connections)?
4) there is a "monitor out" connection on the back of my Receiver ... why/when would I need this?
Thanks for the help with any/all of the questions. I've sifted through the forums, but hadn't stumbled across these specific topics in one thread ... hope you'll have a moment to help out.
I'll post some feedback for everyone as I acquire the cables and hook up the system.
Thanks!
Jish M.
www.jish.nu
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Tiny_Turtle
Sony Legend
Joined: Oct 09, 2002
Posts: 1116
From: Stockholm, Sweden
 |  Posted: 2003-02-21 02:07
Indulging as much as I can:
1. No, there won't be a massive difference. A "digital coaxial cable" is a 75 Ohm cable.
2. Nope. If you'd want to, the decoding could be done inside the DVD instead of in the receiver, but the latter generally (as in your case) does it better.
3. No. That particular receiver won't upconvert the composite or s-video signal to component before sending it on. Would it be possible to connect both the DVD and VCR directly to the TV and leave the receiver out of the video equation?
4. I'll leave this one to other members of the forum.
/Tiny Connectors
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paulaceto
Sony Legend
Joined: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 1211
From: Rhode Island, USA
| Posted: 2003-02-21 05:59
The monitor-out does two things:
1) You can use the receiver as a video switcher. All video into the receiver, one line out to the TV. Problem: It's only composite out. I agree with Tiny on this (your item #3).
2) The reciever menu can be viewed on the TV rather than just on the little display on the front of the receiver. If you have a spare composite input on the TV, connect the monitor-out there to make receiver setup easier.
Other comments- Ther is no such thing as "digital coax". that's just a phase that's been floating around the net. Coax doesn't know (or care) whether it is carrying anaolg or digital signals.
You might want to consider the optical connection for your audio. I like it because there is no chance for noise pick-up and it breaks the ground connection between the DVD and the receiver.
Connect the DVD to the TV via component directly. Connect the VCR to the TV via composite with separate audio cables (RCA connectors).
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Tiny_Turtle
Sony Legend
Joined: Oct 09, 2002
Posts: 1116
From: Stockholm, Sweden
| Posted: 2003-02-21 08:01
There has been some (ok, lots) of discussion here on whether to use optical coax. I'd say use the one you have, and unless you have golden ears, you won't be able to spot the difference (that is not to say that some people don't with their high-end equipment).
/Tiny Ears
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VictorT
Sony Addict
Joined: Dec 30, 2002
Posts: 186
From: Texas
 | Posted: 2003-02-21 22:39
Make sure you check the back of your dvd player and recv. before you go out and buy a digital cable. I have 2 dvd players hooked up to my 985. The 985 only has dvd coax so i use that for my sony 715p and i use toslink into sat. for my apex 800.
generally speaking, mid-level sony recv's (anything not ES) only have dvd coax in so keep that in mind.
Unless there is no other way to connect it dont waste your money on any of those convertors.
-victorT
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
 | Posted: 2003-02-22 03:06
Simply put, a "Digital Coax" wire has an impedence charactaristic of 75 ohms. An "Analog Coax" wire has an impedence characteristic of 50 ohms.
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paulaceto
Sony Legend
Joined: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 1211
From: Rhode Island, USA
| Posted: 2003-02-22 10:09
I'll have to disagree with you on that one. Video cable is 75 ohms and its analog. Also, there is a lot of 50 ohm cable out there carrying TV sync and blanking pulses.
[ This message was edited by: paulaceto on 2003-02-22 10:14 ]
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2003-02-22 19:36
Less simply put, if true 75 ohm impedence characteristic wire is not used for Linear PCM Digital Transmissions the result will be signal reflections and induced signal jitter.
There are millions and millions of 50 ohm Analog cables being used in nearly every home across America. By contrast how obscure is a TV synch and blanking pulse cable? It doesn't negate he fact that the Analog wires we use have a 50 ohm impedence chracteristic and should not be used with Digital transmissions.
-Maxx
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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paulaceto
Sony Legend
Joined: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 1211
From: Rhode Island, USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 08:39
You know, I never thought about the impedance of audio cables before due to the limited frequency band in use. Opening up an audio coax, I noticed that the diameter was quite small. Since the characteristic impedance is determined by the geometry (and the dielectric constant), I became curious. I did a search on the web for audio cables. Most did not list the impedance. Those that did stated that it was 110 ohms, not 50. Imagine my surprise!
Oh, TV sync and blanking cables are not obscure. Every time you watch TV, those cables are in use in studios throughout the world.
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paulaceto
Sony Legend
Joined: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 1211
From: Rhode Island, USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 11:32
I thought about this some more and did some research. I looked at all of the manuals for my equipment and I found the following:
1) All audio output impedances are listed as being less that 10 Kohms.
2) All audio input impedances are listed as being greater than 47 Kohms.
The conclusion is there was never any intent to use matched-impedance connections for audio.
First a little background: the Maximun Power Transfer Theorem says that to transfer the most power to the load, the output impedance of the driver (Zout), the input impedance of the load (Zin) and the characteristic impedance of the cable (Zo) all have to be the same value. At video frequencies and for digital, a mismatched impedance will result in loss of power and reflections at any discontinuity.
At audio frequencies, this is not so much of a concern because the wavelength of audio is so much longer than the length of the cable.
Since the Zin of the audio load is much greater than the Zout of the source, they are not going for max power, but max signal voltage. They don't care about matching impedances because the frequency is so low and they are using input amplifiers with voltage gain. They don't need max power, they'll make their own.
Bottom line: audio cable is treated like plain wire without concern for it's Zo. Coax is used because it's shielded so it minimizes noise pick-up.
[ This message was edited by: paulaceto on 2003-02-23 12:33 ]
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 16:11
The 75 ohm impedence caharictaristic requirement for Digital Coax and the general 50 ohm charictaristic of Analog interconnects was something I picked up from Jon Risch over at AA. Maybe you should go over there and straighten the ol' home brew cable Guru out on a few things.
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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paulaceto
Sony Legend
Joined: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 1211
From: Rhode Island, USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 16:49
Give me a URL and I'll check it out. Anway, a 50 ohm cable is useless if the load is 47 Kohms. Look at the manuals that came with your equipment and see what your audio input impedance is.
Later:
I've been hunting over at audioasylum and I can't find your reference.
[ This message was edited by: paulaceto on 2003-02-23 17:15 ]
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 17:33
Paul- At least you are consistant. Whether it is Digital or Analog Interconnect none of it matters or makes any difference to you. How very objectivist of you!
I will give you the following URL, and even though we may have had our differences I want to warn you that many of the people on the following site are not kind people. They are EE's and BE's who will rip you a new one just to watch you bleed. Of course that is why they are into Audio, not to enjoy Music, but to argue endlessly trying to prove how much smarter they are than everyone else seemingly unaware that without the Magic of the Music they are totally lost.
AA Cable Asylum
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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paulaceto
Sony Legend
Joined: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 1211
From: Rhode Island, USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 17:42
Maxx, I'm not being an a--hole. I'm trying to understand why other people believe what they do. I'm just looking at the problem using basic electronics theory. My investigation of audio interconnects leads me to believe that the impedance of audio cable is a moot point. I hate to be a pest, but could you narrow it down a little? What is the title of the post?
Later:
I searched for "50" and found this post-
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=cables&n=11212&highlight=50&r=&session=
I don't see anything here that says analog cable is 50 ohms (other than in the title). They say that RCA connectors are 50 ohms ("to the best of Damon's knowledge").
Also look at :
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=cables&n=68231&highlight=analog is 50 ohms&r=&session=
The very first question asks if audio interconnects should be 50 ohms. The answer is "No".
From your last response I see that you are upset. I honestly don't know why anyone would become emotional over a technical issue. After all, it's just physics, not religion.
[ This message was edited by: paulaceto on 2003-02-23 18:05 ]
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 18:26
Paul- I agree with you 100%! There is no impedance protocol when it comes to Analog interconnects. Its just that ever since I got into Digital Seperates I have seen people who were trying to use Analog Coax for Digital Interface rebuffed for using a 50 ohm interface instead of the required 75 ohm interface.
I don't know of a particular post which states this, it just seems to be the consensus that Analog Interconnect has a 50 ohm impedence characteristic. You might try the search engine though.
You and I approach things in Audio differently. I like to research the theory behind why things work, and then make my final descision based on the way it sounds. If it doesn't pass the listening test, then I don't care if it is the latest and greatest Technology, it won't end up in my Audio System. I've turned down equipment that was many times more expensive and electronically sophisticated than the gear I run simply because it couldn't noticably outperform the gear I already had.
As far as I am concerned it all ends at the Ear/Brain Interface- the final transducer!
-Maxx
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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paulaceto
Sony Legend
Joined: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 1211
From: Rhode Island, USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 18:33
I am often relentless in this forum because I hate junk science. If I see something that doesn't sound quite right, I research it and post my findings. I'm not attached to anything I say. If someone can spot a flaw in my reasoning, then I've learned something. I'm only looking for the truth, even if it hurts.
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 19:09
I am quite careful about what I say on this site and I too have done thousands of hours of research picking the minds of the best EE's and AE's on the web for knowledge. So, if you don't agree with my EE, don't blame me. And don't think you have the corner on Electronics Theory either.
That's why I prefer to enjoy the sound of the wonderful Audio System I have built, rather than to argue with some Tech who is trying to tell me that it dosen't sound as good as it clearly does!
-Maxx
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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paulaceto
Sony Legend
Joined: Dec 14, 2001
Posts: 1211
From: Rhode Island, USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 19:13
Excuse me, I'm not a "tech". I have a Master's in EE and over 30 years experience designing both analog and digital electronics. I've also taught EE at the college level. And no, I don't have a corner on electronics theory but I am willing to debate it in a public forum. Bring on your experts.
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2003-02-23 21:35
These experts are not "mine". They are the formost experts in High End Audio, and are the designers and builders of some of the finest Audio equipment and Analog and Digital interface in the world. I sought out their knowledge in an attempt to know the Truth about how Audio really works.
If you wish to inquire of them then go to AA and seek them out. Go in there with your "all wires are the same theory" and see if it flies. It is a bulletproof theory, right. I could tell you right now what they will say, but you might be more apt to beleive Jon Risch or Bob Crump.
Maybe its time you went to play with the Big Dogs!
Have Fun!
-Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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Tiny_Turtle
Sony Legend
Joined: Oct 09, 2002
Posts: 1116
From: Stockholm, Sweden
| Posted: 2003-02-24 06:11
Maybe it's time you guys swapped e-mail addresses for the continuation of this slow-motion chat-session?
/Tiny IRC
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2003-02-27 03:36
Tiny- This is a discussion Forum. We are having a discussion about Analog wire impedence. If you are not interested in the subject, then move on. If you have nothing constructive to contribute then find a Thread where you can say something constructive.
-Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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Tiny_Turtle
Sony Legend
Joined: Oct 09, 2002
Posts: 1116
From: Stockholm, Sweden
| Posted: 2003-02-27 06:32
Sorry, you're right and I'm wrong. I will try and keep my smart remarks on a shorter leash...
/Calle
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2003-02-27 13:16
That is the True Tiny I have grown to know and enjoy reading Posts from here at Agoraquest.
-Maxx
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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