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    Moderated By: Maxxwire
    Forum:  Amp/Receiver/Speakers/Connections/Cables
    Post Reply in Topic: The Schroeder Frequency: A Show and Tell
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    Topic Review
    Maxxwire
    Sony Adept
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26074
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA
     Posted: 2012-03-16 03:30   


    The Swans offer crystal clear proof that their beauty is much more than just skin deep!



    mykyll2727
    Sony Pro
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas
     Posted: 2012-03-15 18:04   
    Maxx_Yes they are. The F2.2s and the new version F2.2As._mykl

    Maxxwire
    Sony Adept
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26074
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA
     Posted: 2012-03-15 03:09   

    On 2012-03-10 23:46, mykyll2727 wrote:
    The ones I'm looking to get reach down strongly to the mid 20s.  



    _Mykl- Are those speakers the Swans by any chance?



    Sony H-9 MaxxPix

    jttar
    Sony Master
    Joined: Feb 28, 2003
    Posts: 9228
    From: Chicago,IL, USA
     Posted: 2012-03-15 22:10   

    On 2012-03-10 23:46, mykyll2727 wrote:

    Hi Joe_Sorry I missed your question my friend.  


    Not a problem. Thanks for sharing your settings with me. I was curious what settings you used with multible subs. I tried two subs but had a heck of a time trying to match them and finally settled on my one SVS water heater. My hat is off to you managing to balance three.

    Joe

    NiteHawk
    Ultimate Sony Reviewer
    Joined: Oct 25, 2001
    Posts: 2638
    From: Poughkeepsie, New York
     Posted: 2012-03-07 10:10   


    Curious.  Click here for more information.

    mykyll2727
    Sony Pro
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas
     Posted: 2012-03-07 14:33   
    Very interesting. Thanks for posting!!
     

    I've had as many as six subs in use in my system at the same time. I disagree with the author that says not being able to get smooth blending between subs and speakers is due to a lack of effort. I spent a great deal of time trying to blend subs in to my system and have found it to be a difficult thing to do. I've been working on it for years. In fact as good as I have it now I'm still not completely satisfied. It's a big reason I've decided to make an upgrade to my front speakers. I'm going to larger towers with much greater bass weight and extension to be able to use lower Xover settings on the subs. I don't have Audyssey MultEQ XT32 just MultEQ and I've heard that XT32 is great for multiple subs and might well make it easier. Getting the blend of subs and speakers right manually is in my experience a difficult accomplishment. For me, the lower the Xover settings on the subs while still getting proper sound the better. I want my subs to handle as few frequencies above subsonic as possible and let my speakers handle as much of the rest while still getting the highest level of SQ as I can._mykl

    Maxxwire
    Sony Adept
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26074
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA
     Posted: 2012-03-08 00:01   
      

    I have no idea which Audiophiles this guy is accusing of having no idea what they are doing, but the Audiophiles I hung out with crosed their Subwoofer over as low a frequency as as possible. I used a Peavey 31 band EQ to crossover the Preamp of my 4 channel Subwoofer and apply a +15 dB boost to frequencies down to infrasonic 20 hz with an effective range an octave lower to 10 hz. It took a pair of 10 hz capable stereo power amps run by a 70 Amp power supply, but while playing the 10 hz track from the Stereophile Test 2 CD the Subwoofer could silently move objects across the table.

    Mr. Schroeder needs to take his measurements about 4 octaves lower before he casts dispersions on how real world Audio enthusiasts and Audiophiles set up their gear because it is evident from the article that he has absolutely no idea of the silent effectiveness of infrasonic Subwoofers.

    In my personal definition of a Subwoofer it should be seen and not heard... only noticeable by its effects.





    Sony H-9 MaxxPix  

    jttar
    Sony Master
    Joined: Feb 28, 2003
    Posts: 9228
    From: Chicago,IL, USA
     Posted: 2012-03-07 21:07   
    Mykyl,

    I totally agree with you on using the lowest crossover settings on your sub that your speakers will allow. I do the same with my single SVS Ultra tower. Out of curiosity, where do you set the crossover level on your subs and do you set them the same?

    Joe

    dontsleep33
    Sonyphile
    Joined: May 03, 2008
    Posts: 742
    From: MG,Brazil
     Posted: 2012-03-09 11:41   
    Maxx,
    What are you powering with the Astron RS-70 ?I have the RS-12 and RS-20 amp versions.Plus a 23 amp Samlex Swithcing power supply for my 2 way base radios but for audio I have nothing to use them with

    Maxxwire
    Sony Adept
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 26074
    From: Portland, Oregon - USA
     Posted: 2012-03-09 12:21   

    On 2012-03-09 11:41, dontsleep33 wrote:
    Maxx,
    What are you powering with the Astron RS-70 ?



    dontsleep- Its good to hear from you! When it was set up in the configuration as shown in the picture above I was using the Astron RS 70M power supply to run two 500 watt 10 hz capable 13.4 volt DC Stereo Subwoofer power amps and it did a superb job of it. Originally I was using a 20 Amp power supply, but it couldn't bring the infrasonic thunder nearly as well as the 70 Amp Astron.





    -----------------
    A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!



    The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930

    [ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2012-03-09 16:45 ]

    NiteHawk
    Ultimate Sony Reviewer
    Joined: Oct 25, 2001
    Posts: 2638
    From: Poughkeepsie, New York
     Posted: 2012-03-09 09:23   
    The Schroeder Frequency: A Show and Tell, Part 2



    Click here for part 2.

    RickeyM
    Sony King
    Joined: Sep 09, 2004
    Posts: 1428
    From: Baltimore, Maryland
     Posted: 2012-03-09 20:33   
    Alot of Magnaplanar owners who use subs cross them 30 or 40hz. Particularly with the bigger Maggies they play so cleanly down to those frequencies, there's no need for the subs to be used to reinforce the bass from the main speakers. Many owners are using multiple subs for a smoother integration as well.

    dontsleep33
    Sonyphile
    Joined: May 03, 2008
    Posts: 742
    From: MG,Brazil
     Posted: 2012-03-10 07:46   

    On 2012-03-09 12:21, Maxxwire wrote:

    On 2012-03-09 11:41, dontsleep33 wrote:
    Maxx,
    What are you powering with the Astron RS-70 ?



    dontsleep- Its good to hear from you! When it was set up in the configuration as shown in the picture above I was using the Astron RS 70M power supply to run two 500 watt 10 hz capable 13.4 volt DC Stereo Subwoofer power amps and it did a superb job of it. Originally I was using a 20 Amp power supply, but it couldn't bring the infrasonic thunder nearly as well as the 70 Amp Astron.


    Yeah that would be a little too much for the 20 amp psu to handle.that RS-70M is aswome thogh.
    -----------------
    A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!



    The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930

    [ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2012-03-09 16:45 ]


    mykyll2727
    Sony Pro
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas
     Posted: 2012-03-10 23:46   

    On 2012-03-07 21:07, jttar wrote:
    Mykyl,

    I totally agree with you on using the lowest crossover settings on your sub that your speakers will allow. I do the same with my single SVS Ultra tower. Out of curiosity, where do you set the crossover level on your subs and do you set them the same?

    Joe



    Hi Joe_Sorry I missed your question my friend. The Xover settings on the subs connected to my mains are at about 70HZ now. Much higher than I would like really and as low as I can go and still get the bass and mid bass weight I want for music. My front SS-K90EDs are 4.5ft out into the room. The imaging, tonal quality, and soundstage are best at that distance but the bass suffers. The 6.5" woofers are overpowered by the 6.5" midranges at that position. So to compensate I've had to Xover at that point to get proper bass and mid-bass weight. The problems are at that point the subsonic levels aren't as strong as I'd like compared to the higher bass frequencies and the SQ of those higher frequencies suffers as well. The subs aren't as musical as the towers at those higher frequencies and also the use of the bass boost to strengthen the lower frequencies creates too boomy a sound. I don't have subs that cost tens of thousands of dollars (nor can I afford them) which might probably prove to be more musical so I've been looking to speaks that will reach lower with much greater strength. The ones I'm looking to get reach down strongly to the mid 20s. That way I can use much lower Xover settings than I am now so the subs only handle the sub sonic and I'll also have better SQ overall. When I was using nine K90EDs and six subs the front, side surround and center sub were 60-65Hz depending on the sub and location. The surround back sub was set at 50Hz as those speaks and subs were closer to the wall. Since I've reconfigured the system to 7ch I'm only using three subs across the front and the center sub is set at 80Hz._mykl

    [ This message was edited by: mykyll2727 on 2012-03-11 00:11 ]

    mykyll2727
    Sony Pro
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 4171
    From: Las Vegas
     Posted: 2012-04-06 07:50   
    Paul McGowen sent this email today. I found it very interesting as I've been looking into new subs to compliment my new speakers when I get them.




    How you can tell a servo sub from a slug

    There are not many subwoofers out there that have servos running them and that’s a shame.

    A servo is like a little microphone placed right on the woofer that listens to what the woofer is doing, compares that with what it should be doing and then makes corrections to get it perfect. Woofers are one of the few loudspeaker categories where you can employ realtime correction to get the output perfect. They are difficult to design and most subwoofer manufacturers don’t bother.

    Servos improve transient response, reduce or eliminate woofer overhang, distortion and flatten frequency response dramatically. Every subwoofer design I have ever been involved in was servo based and I would never use a subwoofer in my listening room that wasn’t – especially since I need to integrate the bass with my very quick planar loudspeakers.

    I am always amused when people tell me they can’t integrate a subwoofer in their system because they always “hear” their subs as separate from their main systems. Of course that’s true if you’re not using a servo sub! A conventional subwoofer is like a slow moving slug.

    How can you tell? Simply go to your woofer cone and tap on it. In a servo system the woofer will be as tight as a drum and resist your tapping – in a non-servo sub it’ll “thud” and give way to your tapping. When you play the two subs, you get exactly the same results: one is lightning quick with transients, the other “wobbly” and “tubby”.

    Your system needs a subwoofer but not if you’re going to add a slug. Add a race car instead.


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