| Topic Review |
ES_RevengeII
Sony Addict
Joined: Apr 26, 2010
Posts: 181
From: Canada
 |  Posted: 2010-06-10 08:44
While it's true that your multi-channel analog inputs on that receiver exhibit less THD + N than the digital inputs (IIRC), the difference should certainly not be to the magnitude where you can say that it is "clearly audible". Not unless there is something wrong with the player output or a problem with the receiver or a defect in its design anyway. Or unless your ear can detect differences in the hundreths of percent of distortion.
As for the BD player and cutoff frequency setting the speaker size to "small", I agree with you there. The vast majority of players that even have multi-analog out to begin with, have crap for bass management. Set the speakers to small or large and that's that--the crossover is anybody's guss, lol. Setting them to small is almost always 120Hz or similar...
That graph you linked to has very poor colour choice for the lines--two blue colours and two green colours for a graph with only a handful of speaker settings??? Anyway it's pretty easy to determine which ones are "small" and which are "large" as the large ones are surely the straight lines to 20Hz. However I'm not sure how you're getting 56Hz? I'm seeing the front and surround channels starting to roll off from about 180Hz right? The 3dB down point looks like 90dB to me?
[ This message was edited by: ES_RevengeII on 2010-06-10 08:54 ]
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gerchy
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 109
From: Slovenia
 | Posted: 2010-06-10 09:31
Well, since I believe the difference between 640kbps lossy DD/DTS and lossless is barely noticable the digital connection would make sense. But when comparing inputs it turned out that digital circuitry adds some distortion and the sound is far from being the same as the source.
The test was conducted many times with two pairs of ears. There were also two pairs of loudspeakers. One pair in approximate price range of $1000 where the difference was really subtle and the other within price range of $7000 where direct sound was obviously closer to the source - in fact, it was pretty much the same as the source. That was confirmed in another test where the preouts were compared directly with the power amp.
The bluray outputs should be fine, it's just the crossover which gives me doubts. There is definitely better sound with current processor (SDP-EP9ES) with crossover set to 80, maybe even 60 Hz.
I know I'm giving this too much thought but my hifi shelf is quite inaccessible due to heavy gear so I want to clear out the theoretical stuff first.
EDIT: I was right when I doubted my reading capability. One sloppy look and there you have: the crossover may be at 56 Hz but the cutoff is at 90 Hz. Good enough!
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:: FB Sony ES group
[ This message was edited by: gerchy on 2010-06-16 15:42 ]
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gerchy
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 109
From: Slovenia
| Posted: 2010-06-07 03:51
I'm curious how the VA333ES's multichannel inputs bypasses the digital circuitry when settings at the external processor (size/surround position/gain/delay/cutoff) are left untouched? Can they be fully set by the receiver since the signal is analog?
It looks like they can be as some of the settings are dimmed when selecting multichannel input (EQ, soundfields) and I did manage to set the balance and gain.
A service manual would be of a tremendous help here! 
P.S.: I'm also curious what is the BDP-S5000ES default cutoff frequency when speaker size is set to "small"?
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[b]:: [url=http://www.sony-es.com]sony-es.com[/url][/b]
[b]::[/b] [url=http://www.facebook.com/groups/sony.es]FB Sony ES group[/url]
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AaronB
Sonyphile
Joined: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 622
From: Ottawa, Canada
 | Posted: 2010-06-07 07:19
The size (and therefore cutoff), surround position, and delay settings have no effect on the multi-channel inputs. All of those functions depend on digital processing in the DSPs. Only the level settings have any effect. There is an exception: if you have the center channel set to "mix" or "no" then the center channel signal will be mixed (in the analog domain) into the front left and right speaker outputs. The same goes for the subwoofer input.
Only the Sony receviers with S-master Pro digital amplifiers can perform other processing (such as bass management and EQ) on the multi-channel analog inputs (So some of the STR-DA?000ES and STR-DA?100ES series). They can do this because the multi-channel input is digitized out of necessity due to the digital amplifiers.
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gerchy
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 109
From: Slovenia
| Posted: 2010-06-10 03:59
True. Multichannel inputs completely bypasses digital circuitry. So no cutoff/position/delay settings are available.
However, those settings can be used with any other input, but it's clearly audible that digital circuitry affects the sound. There goes the secondary (coaxial) connection I was going to use for DVDs where circuitry is active. The sound is just too distorted!
So, the only option are multichannel inputs with bluray processing the signal. It's hard to figure what the cutoff frequency is. I found a german test, but I seriously doubt my reading capabilities as the chart is showing xover at 56 Hz. Too good to be true? 
http://www.player.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/son_bd_s5000es_dd_afq.jpeg
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[b]:: [url=http://www.sony-es.com]sony-es.com[/url][/b]
[b]::[/b] [url=http://www.facebook.com/groups/sony.es]FB Sony ES group[/url]
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AaronB
Sonyphile
Joined: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 622
From: Ottawa, Canada
| Posted: 2010-06-10 08:24
Judging by that graph, it looks like 80 Hz, and only 6 dB/octave rolloff. (The crossover frequency is defined as the point where the level falls to -3 dB). Note that the subwoofer is attenuates (approximately) 10 dB which is standard since there is a lot of energy in bass and LFE signals.
Obviously using BluRay and this receiver, you should use the multi-channel inputs. The Coax or optical can only handle 2-channel PCM or plain old Dolby Digital and DTS which are well over 10 year old formats. If you want to hear the high definition sound, you need to go analog or upgrade your receiver.
I have a STR-DA4ES (same as yours but different country) in my 2nd system and I *was* happy with it until I watched a movie recently where I had significant distortion out of the surround speakers during loud passages. I tried many combinations of settings and nothing improved the situation, so I empathize with you, and suggest that perhaps you should just use the analog all the time. If your Blu-ray player has a good quality analog output, then there is no reason not to use it.
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gerchy
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 109
From: Slovenia
| Posted: 2010-07-30 01:23
Maxx,
can you merge this threads with this topic: http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=36638&forum=51 />
I will be adding some new findings these days!
Thanks!
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[b]:: [url=http://www.sony-es.com]sony-es.com[/url][/b]
[b]::[/b] [url=http://www.facebook.com/groups/sony.es]FB Sony ES group[/url]
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
 | Posted: 2010-07-31 00:24
On 2010-07-30 01:23, gerchy wrote:
Maxx,
can you merge this threads with this topic: http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=36638&forum=51
I will be adding some new findings these days!
Unfortunately I can not combine both threads into one, but your link to the other thread has accomplished much the same purpose for those who are interested in finding out how your mint condition Sony VA333ES Receiver performs...
~Maxx~
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
Explore The New Sony MaxxPix
[ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2010-07-31 00:32 ]
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gerchy
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 109
From: Slovenia
| Posted: 2010-08-02 04:21
On 2010-06-10 03:59, gerchy wrote:
However, those settings can be used with any other input, but it's clearly audible that digital circuitry affects the sound.
I owe you guys a correction!
It seemed that distortion was caused by a "hidden" setting where bass and treble gain of each level field can be adjusted (this has nothing to do with EQ mode!). Both settings were set to +4dB. Funny, those settings are in the SURROUND menu!
So, the coaxial connection makes sense and it turned out that it provides slightly better results than multichannel input where BDP-S5000ES is decoding the sound. Let's see some details:
Coaxial connection - STR-VA333ES settings:
- all the speakers set to small
- bass crossover for all speakers set to > 80Hz
- cut off frequency of the LFE channel high cut filter se to 200Hz
- subwoofer's crossover disabled while VA333 is doing bass management
Multichannel connection - BDP-S5000ES settings:
- all the speakers set to small
- subwoofer's crossover disabled while S5000ES is doing bass management
The sound is very similar with one subtle difference. With coaxial connection (and VA333ES decoding the source) low frequencies are deep, soft and punchy - just the way I like. With multichannel connection the bass is harsher, harder and tighter.
I did a lot of testing and it turned out that the subwoofer's low pass xover needs to be set to 90Hz and LPX slope to 32 dB in order to gain the same results as with the coaxial connection.
I'm not really sure what caused this - It's just like the low frequencies were harder because of the higher crossover frequency but than again, they would be harder too while subwoofer's high cut on the VA333ES is set to 200Hz.
Even if BDP-S5000ES's bass crossover is higher than we read on the graph, the sound with the VA333ES and crossover set to 120Hz is better too! The subwoofer's xover needs to be enabled!
With subwoofer's xover enabled there is practically no difference (well, lossless audio may be a bit more detailed, especially the dialogs - but thain again, we're not sure if the tracks are from the same mix).
When the subwoofer is disabled there is obviously different (higher?) bass crossover frequency with the bluray processing the sound.
The VA333ES really is one hell of a machine!
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[b]::[/b] [url=http://www.facebook.com/groups/sony.es]FB Sony ES group[/url]
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LonnieHeimann
Sony Fan
Joined: Mar 02, 2011
Posts: 1
From: Peru
 | Posted: 2011-03-02 11:26
The VA333ES really is one hell of a machine!
Agreed.
senuke x
[ This message was edited by: LonnieHeimann on 2011-03-24 17:15 ]
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parney
Sonyphile
Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 522
From:
| Posted: 2011-03-02 14:47
So is the VA333es just a european version of the 4esor 7es and did they come with the wood sides ?
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25729
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2011-03-02 21:46
parney- None of the VA333ES Receivers I've seen here at Agoraquest had wood sides including the one Maverick of OZ owns which is shown above.
~Maxx~
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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David_S
Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 03, 2004
Posts: 761
From: BC, Canada
 | Posted: 2011-03-03 01:25
On 2011-03-02 14:47, parney wrote:
So is the VA333es just a european version of the 4esor 7es and did they come with the wood sides ?
The DA7ES, DA4ES, VA333ES share the same service manual. 2002 vintage.
Most parts in these are shared by all models. Any time some one praises one of these they are praising all of these.
MODEL PARTS No.
DA7ES: US model 4-240-816-0
DA7ES: CND model 4-240-816-1
DA4ES: US model 4-240-816-2
DA4ES: CND model 4-240-816-3
VA333ES: AEP model 4-240-816-4
VA333ES: KR model 4-240-816-5
VA333ES: TW model 4-240-816-6
CND : Canadian model
KR : Korea model
TW : Taiwan model
Reference Power Output
(8 ohms 20 Hz – 20 kHz, THD 0.05 %)
STR-DA7ES:
FRONT 1) : 120 W + 120 W
CENTER 1) : 120 W
SURR 1) : 120 W + 120 W
SURR BACK 1) : 120 W + 120 W
STR-DA4ES:
FRONT 1) : 110 W + 110 W
CENTER 1) : 110 W
SURR 1) : 110 W + 110 W
SURR BACK 1) : 110 W + 110 W
STR-VA333ES:
FRONT1): 100 W + 100 W
CENTER1): 100 W
SURR1): 100 W + 100 W
SURR BACK1): 100 W + 100 W
Power consumption
Models of area code U
STR-DA7ES: 450 W
STR-DA4ES: 420 W
STR-VA333ES
CEL, KR 390 W
TW 400 W (max. 1,000 W)
Specs on them are very similar. My DA4ES has given 8 years of reliability now. I will get a newer receiver at some point when home theater demands newer features but will probably keep the DA4ES longer.
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TA- E77ES E80ES E1000ESD N77ES F555ES
RM- AV3000 AX1400 (2)AX4000
SDP-EP9ES, ST-S730ES
STR- DA4ES DA3100ES (2)DA5700ES (2)GX10ES
DVP- (3)NS999ES NS3100ES CX777ES
CDP-X303ES, CDP-M555ES
MDS-JA20ES, TC-K717ES, DTC-690
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parney
Sonyphile
Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 522
From:
| Posted: 2011-03-03 06:28
My DA4es is still going strong as well great receiver I also have the DA5es and await the arrival of my DA7es that I won on ebay.Ican't see myself buying a brand new receiver just for HDMI when they have less power than these great receivers mentioned.
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parney
Sonyphile
Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 522
From:
| Posted: 2011-03-03 06:44
[ This message was edited by: parney on 2011-03-03 07:09 ]
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gerchy
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Jan 26, 2010
Posts: 109
From: Slovenia
| Posted: 2011-03-03 08:00
On 2011-03-02 14:47, parney wrote:
So is the VA333es just a european version of the 4esor 7es and did they come with the wood sides ?
Woodsides were stock for Slovenian market only.
Joke! 
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[b]:: [url=http://www.sony-es.com]sony-es.com[/url][/b]
[b]::[/b] [url=http://www.facebook.com/groups/sony.es]FB Sony ES group[/url]
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parney
Sonyphile
Joined: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 522
From:
| Posted: 2011-03-03 08:42
well they look great gerchy .
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David_S
Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 03, 2004
Posts: 761
From: BC, Canada
| Posted: 2011-03-03 10:26
I envy those "Slovenian market only" models.
Also nice touch on the minisisc track title in the picture.
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TA- E77ES E80ES E1000ESD N77ES F555ES
RM- AV3000 AX1400 (2)AX4000
SDP-EP9ES, ST-S730ES
STR- DA4ES DA3100ES (2)DA5700ES (2)GX10ES
DVP- (3)NS999ES NS3100ES CX777ES
CDP-X303ES, CDP-M555ES
MDS-JA20ES, TC-K717ES, DTC-690
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David_S
Sonyphile
Joined: Aug 03, 2004
Posts: 761
From: BC, Canada
| Posted: 2011-03-06 11:02
Here is some information from the Sony technical background for the 2002 ES receivers. This covers the STR-DA7ES, STRDA4ES & STR-VA333ES.
"Jitter can enter the signal during recording, playback and transfer. To suppress jitter at the digital input, Sony offers a powerful solution. Our Digital interface LSI regenerates the digital input signal to according to a highly accurate quartz clock. To boost precision further still, Sony controls the action of this LSI with a VCA stabilizer, reducing internal clock drift to a bare minimum."
<v:shapetype stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o referrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> </v:shapetype>
"The combination of the Digital Interface LSI and Sony's VCA stabilizer makes for an uncommonly consistent internal clock, for uncommonly accurate regeneration of digital input signals. So jitter is effectively suppressed."
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TA- E77ES E80ES E1000ESD N77ES F555ES
RM- AV3000 AX1400 (2)AX4000
SDP-EP9ES, ST-S730ES
STR- DA4ES DA3100ES (2)DA5700ES (2)GX10ES
DVP- (3)NS999ES NS3100ES CX777ES
CDP-X303ES, CDP-M555ES
MDS-JA20ES, TC-K717ES, DTC-690
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