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wilky
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 128
From: Richmond, Va
 |  Posted: 2007-01-17 08:42
I was the fine recipient of a wine storage fridge for Xmas which I proceeded to put in my music room. Circuit breaker tripping followed this addition, but only with the vacuum on. Next was the 6 hour marathon of music on Saturday, with a few more circuit breaker trips during peak moments.
So I got an ampmeter from work and proceeded to find out how many amps that fridge was pulling when it cut on, 10 was the answer. Fridge has got to find another room now.
Just out of curiosity, I decided to find out how many amps my stereo system was pulling during those peak moments. Amazingly, the answer was 12 amps, and I believe most of it was the SVS subwoofer.
Just thought I'd share that little story
Wilky
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
 | Posted: 2007-01-17 15:02
On 2007-01-17 08:42, wilky wrote: So I got an ampmeter from work and proceeded to find out how many amps that fridge was pulling when it cut on, 10 was the answer.
I decided to find out how many amps my stereo system was pulling during those peak moments. Amazingly, the answer was 12 amps, and I believe most of it was the SVS subwoofer.
Wilky- It is for this very reason that a lot of people break in their new power cords by hooking them up to a refridgerator.
I think that you are right about most of the 12 amp power draw being attributed to your SVS Subwoofer. I say this because the the stand alone power supply on my own Subwoofer is rated at a maximum of 11.4 amps which is far greater than the rest of the system combined.
I thought that it was great that you measured the power draw of both the Fridge and your Audio system to find out exactly what was going on with the power draw of each and thank you for sharing the results with us!
~Maxx~
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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SPCOOLIN
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 3627
From: Tampa Bay FL.
 | Posted: 2007-01-18 12:13
Wilky~
First off...Good to hear from you...You've been kinda scarce around here....Hope you're enjoying your system with that Great SVS Ultra & Def Tech combo....
I added it up Steve, and here's what I come up with...unless you have added something since we last heard from you...
DA5ES= 420 watts @ 120v= 3.50 amps
CLR 3000= 1.25 amps x 3=...3.75 amps
SVS Ultra= 5.0 amps...........5.00 amps
Total................................12.25 amps
Considering those are Max Rated Draw figures you must have been running pretty hard....but no doubt the Fridge needs to be on another circuit unless the wire is sized for it and you have a 20 amp breaker on that circuit....
If you weren't aware...A/C & Refrigeration is my business...
Small fridges as you mention draw no more than couple of amps running...Yes starting load can be as much as 4 times higher than run load if the fridge has no start components...and most don't...(but you can add them cheaply) Breakers can normally handle the over rated amperage that happens momentarily when a compressor starts....But breakers also weaken over time and won't handle what they do when in good condition....
Having said that....You may want to check that circuit at the panel with the meter to determine what amperage the breaker is actually tripping out at....It could be tripping prematurely and need replacement....
Since you have the meter...While everything is running...You might also check for voltage drop by checking at the panel first...Then the outlet...A drop would indicate wire of insufficent size (or in poor condition) to handle the load....The Lower the Voltage...the Higher the amperage draw...Especially during startup of the compressor....
Is this the only circuit to that room ?
How often does the fridge cycle ?...If it's often....Is it new ?....If not...does it have dirty condenser coils ?.....That will raise it's amperage draw substantially....and possibly cause it to cycle when it has yet to reach temp by tripping the overload on the compressor....
Just thought I would offer all this as info......but when thinking of your past shutdowns for protector etc....Poor power could be a big factor....
Steve~
Sony DA5ES Parasound HCA2205A (Bi-amping Mains and center)Sony TA-N9000ES (BTL+1 running Surrounds) Sony CX985 400 Disc DVD/CD Definitive Tech..BP30 MainsCLR 3000 Powered Center w/10" sub BPVX/P Surrounds w/dual 6.5" subs ea SVS 20-39PCi Sub
[ This message was edited by: SPCOOLIN on 2007-01-18 16:07 ]
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SPCOOLIN
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 3627
From: Tampa Bay FL.
| Posted: 2007-01-18 14:03
Just totaled up my system for comparison....(which I have never done) so I was curious too...
DA5ES................3.5 amps
CLR 3000............1.25 amps
SVS PCi..............3.00 amps
TAN9000.............4.50 amps
Parasound 2205A 17.00 amps
Total.................24.75 amps
This is all on one 20 amp circuit...and I have no voltage drop or breaker trips....so...of course I'm not drawing that much in normal operation...
Plus add the 2 BPVX/P powered surrounds @ 1.25 amps each (which are on another circuit)...My system totals a whopping 27.25 amps not counting the Television, DVD, and 2 DVR's.....
That's similar to a 5 ton A/C unit in operation....No wonder I whine about my electric bill.... 
I too have a refrigerator in the same room but mine is 26 cu ft and is on the circuit with the BPVX/P's.....
Steve~
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Spcoolin's Web Site:
http://marine-ac.com/
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-01-18 14:23
Steve- I'm sure that long before the circuit breaker blows the extensive structural damage to your house would be an early indication that you were starting to approach the limit of the 20 Amp circuit that your Audio equipment is using.
~Maxx~
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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SPCOOLIN
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 3627
From: Tampa Bay FL.
| Posted: 2007-01-18 14:47
On 2007-01-18 14:23, Maxxwire wrote:
Steve- I'm sure that long before the circuit breaker blows the extensive structural damage to your house would be an early indication that you were starting to approach the limit of the 20 Amp circuit that your Audio equipment is using.
~Maxx~
LOL Maxx 
Problem is I might be keeping Fidel Castro alive with the current & sound waves flowing toward Cuba.....
Steve~
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Spcoolin's Web Site:
http://marine-ac.com/
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-01-18 23:26
ParaSHARCmaster- Who knows, with the right selection of program material you might be able to change the course of history.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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SPCOOLIN
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 3627
From: Tampa Bay FL.
| Posted: 2007-01-19 14:22
Well like I said Steve...Low voltage at the outlet will result in higher amperage draw....Which Compounds everything by lowering the voltage more and raising the amperage more....endless cycle so to speak
I'm a bit surprised your electrician installed 20 amp breakers on #14 wire but it's his licence....
Have you checked voltage at the outlet with things running ?....If so...what was your reading ?
Just for reference...Mine stays at 120v (according to the Panamax)...even with things crankin...and though I haven't checked...I'm pretty sure I draw more than you do at the same voltage....yet your system may have to work harder to attain the same SPL.....So back to the endless cycle....
Voltage at the outlet should be the key factor....The wire supplying it is important...and if your going to have to run new....I would suggest going oversize to #10 wire.....It won't hurt...only help....
Steve~
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Spcoolin's Web Site:
http://marine-ac.com/
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wilky
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 128
From: Richmond, Va
| Posted: 2007-01-19 10:37
Almost 22 amps of amplifier power is pretty impressive, Steve. I never thought my system would draw as much as 12 amps, that's why I was surprised by the reading.
I am currently pondering my next steps in fixing my wiring issues in this room. It's a 20 year old house that had 15 amp breakers when I moved in 3 years ago and I couldn't run a vacuum by itself in this room (on this circuit) when I moved in, and that was prior to any fridges or audio equipment. My electrician from work swapped out the 15 amp breakers for 20 amps, so they are fairly new breakers. It's also 14 ga wire.
I would love to get a new 12 ga circuit up to the stereo system, but that's fishing that wire through an interior wall, not exactly easy.
I'll probably start at the panel, like you suggest Steve, but the problem there is identifying and separating the wires that go just to the two receptacles I'm working with in that room. It's also not that easy getting the ampmeter clamps only around the wires going into that one circuit breaker, since it's in the middle of the panel.
The good news is I don't think anything is broken or working improperly, I just have too many things running on 14 ga circuits. It's also good that the room I'm working with is above the garage which has an open ceiling, it's just 15' up to the ceiling.
I, too, look back at my protector issues in the past and realize more and more that power has been and still is my only problem.
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-01-20 01:41
wilky- As usual Steve is right. Not that any confirmation is needed, but I found this quote on the subject-
Posted by jea48 on August 23, 2006 at 16:09:53
"Code is bare minimum only. For a 20 amp branch circuit #12 awg is the smallest wire sized that can be used. Your electrician lied to you, he just did not want to work with #10 awg solid wire."
***************
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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SPCOOLIN
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 3627
From: Tampa Bay FL.
| Posted: 2007-01-21 10:20
I guess the best solution may be to leave what you have and run a new circuit with #10 wire and a 20 amp breaker (if you have an empty spot in the panel) for the Audio system...
I would however change the breaker on the #14 wire back to 15 amps...It should run at least a vacuum and lighting with a fresh breaker...I also might look for a junction box in the old wiring that may split to the various outlets in the room...from your description...You could have some loose or bad connections and possible fire hazard...
I seem to remember you saying you were looking into external amps for Bi-Amping your Def Techs...And what you have now will never do for that added amp draw....even though you may not need to work things as hard to get the same SPL....
Steve~
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Spcoolin's Web Site:
http://marine-ac.com/
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-01-21 15:32
Wilky- It would also be a good idea to terminate that fine 10 AWG wiring with a premuim quality 20 Amp AC Recepticle and use power cords with premium quality AC Plugs to draw power from it so that there are no weak links in the AC Power delivery to your equipment.
It may sound like quite a project, but it will benefit the sound quality of your A/V system in the most profound way possible by improving the quality of the delivery of the AC Power that your equipment modulates and amplifies into the sound you hear and the picture you see.
~Maxx~
-----------------
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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SPCOOLIN
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 3627
From: Tampa Bay FL.
| Posted: 2007-01-22 09:38
Is that 120-122v on the Panamax with the TWO ? refrigerators running on the same circuit as the Audio system ?....If so that's good....but a bit surprising...
Looks like the cord on your power bar has more insulation that it does wire....Fat cord with #16 wire....get rid of it...or move it somewhere else....The former being the safest option...
PS...Don't be surprised....But #14 is not code for 20 amp...at least anywhere I know of...#14 is Minimum for 15 amps which I assume is the amperage of the breakers that were originally installed (Minimum is #12 for 20 amps)
Steve~
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Spcoolin's Web Site:
http://marine-ac.com/
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wilky
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 128
From: Richmond, Va
| Posted: 2007-01-22 09:20
Thanks for the help and replies, guys.
I, too, am surprised 20 amp breakers don't work with 14 ga wire, my electrician is especially tedious on code here at work almost to a fault, but I can't remember if it was one of his helpers or himself that changed out those breakers for it was 3 years ago. I will investigate further.
My outlets on the outside wall of the room that both of my fridges are hooked up to have home runs to the panel, not looped one to others, so that's good news. But the bad news is I thought all the home runs would be tied into the circuit breaker, but they tied together behind the panel with one wire feeding into the breaker itself. I will have to get some help from my electrician to find where they are tied together and separate out the two receptacles for the two fridges and put them on separate breakers at a minimum, running a new larger wire being ideal.
I ran my test on my stereo equipment from the receptacle that the fridge was on and to get that far away I used the power bar I had removed when I got my Panamax, it is an extremely large cord (I don't know the guage), but it is also 10-12' long. On my test, the panamax did register 113 volts, but I thought that drop was due to the length of the cord on the power bar. My panamax usually registers 120-122 volts from the receptacle that is right next to it.
I agree with you Steve, I need to get this circuit isolated/dedicated and up to code before I move forward with any amp upgrade.
Thanks again,
Wilky
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SPCOOLIN
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 3627
From: Tampa Bay FL.
| Posted: 2007-01-22 09:58
On 2007-01-22 09:20, wilky wrote:
Thanks for the help and replies, guys.
I, too, am surprised 20 amp breakers don't work with 14 ga wire, my electrician is especially tedious on code here at work almost to a fault, but I can't remember if it was one of his helpers or himself that changed out those breakers for it was 3 years ago. I will investigate further.
My outlets on the outside wall of the room that both of my fridges are hooked up to have home runs to the panel, not looped one to others, so that's good news. But the bad news is I thought all the home runs would be tied into the circuit breaker, but they tied together behind the panel with one wire feeding into the breaker itself. I will have to get some help from my electrician to find where they are tied together and separate out the two receptacles for the two fridges and put them on separate breakers at a minimum, running a new larger wire being ideal.
I agree with you Steve, I need to get this circuit isolated/dedicated and up to code before I move forward with any amp upgrade.
Thanks again,
Wilky
Just for clarification...20 amp breakers will WORK with any wire...They just won't adequately Protect wire any smaller than #12....
If that wire to each fridge is #14...Then you would only need to separate them and install Two 15 amp breakers in the panel...not run new larger wire (at least not for the fridges)
Well as you see from the figures I posted earlier...It adds up quickly....just make sure your wire is protected with the correct size breaker...and Yes I would still go with #10 for future upgrades to the audio system...
Steve~
-----------------
Spcoolin's Web Site:
http://marine-ac.com/
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wilky
Sony Aficionado
Joined: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 128
From: Richmond, Va
| Posted: 2007-01-22 16:26
On 2007-01-21 15:32, Maxxwire wrote:
Wilky- It would also be a good idea to terminate that fine 10 AWG wiring with a premuim quality 20 Amp AC Recepticle and use power cords with premium quality AC Plugs to draw power from it so that there are no weak links in the AC Power delivery to your equipment.
It may sound like quite a project, but it will benefit the sound quality of your A/V system in the most profound way possible by improving the quality of the delivery of the AC Power that your equipment modulates and amplifies into the sound you hear and the picture you see.
~Maxx~
My plan is coming together and a premium quality receptacle for the stereo equipment is indeed part of it. I still haven't installed the hospital grade plugs for my two receivers and the dvd/cd player, which will also be part of it. I am assuming and will verify that my Panamax has a premium quality plug on it to plug into the receptacle.
The other part of my master plan is to find and dig out the three home runs from the three receptacles in question and route them to their own dedicated circuit breakers in my panel since I have plenty of room. The only problem I have with this scenario is an upgrade to my amps that would put me over 15 amps of power, which is fairly probably looking at Steve's setup and amp draw. I would love a 10 ga run for the stereo, but it's a hidden circuit that at the moment, I can't find a way to replace. But I have plenty of time to think about it some more. At least this plan would solve every problem I have currently.
I'm sure something will happen that will cause another post to this thread before the plan is officially complete.
Wilky
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25730
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2007-01-22 19:43
On 2007-01-22 16:26, wilky wrote: My plan is coming together and a premium quality receptacle for the stereo equipment is indeed part of it. I still haven't installed the hospital grade plugs for my two receivers and the dvd/cd player, which will also be part of it. I am assuming and will verify that my Panamax has a premium quality plug on it to plug into the receptacle.
Wilky- You were the very first Member to respond to to the The Benefits of Upgrading to Hospital Grade AC Plugs Thread that I started last November so I know that you are familiar with all of the theory behind why these upgrades are so beneficial.
I did want to mention something about what happened when I upgraded to a Furutech Fi-11G AC Plug to terminate the cord on my Panamax PLC. Not only did the sound quality greatly improve, but there was even a startling improvement in the picture quality on my TV that made this improvement worth every penny!
After upgrading the AC Plugs on the TV and its associated equipment and employing some existing Line Conditioning the "crummy Cable signal" that I had been watching for the past 11 years now looks as clean, clear and full of rich dense color as Video Tape!
~Maxx~
A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
The linear relationship between outstanding performance and pricepoint can be nullified thru the skillful application of knowledge.
Dad's Pixel Painting #2
[ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2007-08-30 02:58 ]
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SPCOOLIN
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 3627
From: Tampa Bay FL.
| Posted: 2007-01-23 09:15
Wilky~
If you are able to separate 3 circuits on their own 15 amp breakers...That gives you 45 amps total.....
It might be easier to buy another Panamax and just run your audio off two circuits (30 amps)...leaving the third for other things such as the fridge or vacuum....
#10 is minimum rated size wire for a single 30 amp circuit...and no doubt would be better in a 20 amp circuit and probably better all around...but if you can't get the wire thru.....
Steve~
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Spcoolin's Web Site:
http://marine-ac.com/
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