| Topic Review |
baseballgod
Sonyphile
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 409
From: Connecticut
 |  Posted: 2004-05-06 16:38
Unfortunately, finding DVD-Audios out there that interest me is a tough task. The limited availability of the format is sure a headache especially after investing in a player that could take advantage of my downstream components high resolution. I however have found a DVD-A that really shows off the sometimes stunning sound quality of the format. This disc (actually a 2-disc set) it Led Zeppelins "How The West Was Won". For those of you who are Zeppelin fans and tired of poorly remastered discs, it's a revelation in sonic quality. If you have a DVD-A player this disc should be on your short list of discs to check out!
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Aragon 24k pre, Aragon 2004 amp
JM Lab Profil 77 floor speakers
PS3, MacBook Pro sources
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Straightwire power cables, MIT I/Cs
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
 |  Posted: 2004-05-17 21:12
You're kinda brave using the "A" word on a Sony web site. I for one am very dissapointed in the selection of both DVD-A and SACD. Why won't they come out with any music to support these formats? I can find a few DVD-A disks that interest me, but SACD is a joke. All I have to say is I think they are making the same mistake with these formats as they did with Mini Disk. The Mini Disk died because of lack of software and availability. If industry doesn't do anything to promote these formats better then they too will be dust in the wind.
~C.C.~
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baseballgod
Sonyphile
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 409
From: Connecticut
| Posted: 2004-05-17 21:29
I wasn't aware using the "DVD-A" word was so taboo around here. Hopefully they let me stay....hehe! Considering SACD is crushing DVD-A though, my little post won't stir up too much. Plus i am enjoying the Hi-Rez sound through a good old SONY receiver. You're completly right though, these formats need more support. The players are inexpensive enough now. E.G. Pioneer DVD-A/SACD player model 563a, 135 bucks, or if genuine Sony quality is a concern (and it does outperform the Pio) the Sony DVP-685 5 disc DVD/SACD changer is about 250 bucks. If you're a DVD-Audio only type of person, a Toshiba SD-4900 will set you back a measly 90 bucks. Now as far as the music titles, they need to encode one side of a disc in CD and the other in SACD or DVD-A...thats all. I'd gladly pay a couple bucks more myself!
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Aragon 24k pre, Aragon 2004 amp
JM Lab Profil 77 floor speakers
PS3, MacBook Pro sources
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Straightwire power cables, MIT I/Cs
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
 | Posted: 2004-05-18 03:10
A friend of mine had a $1,200 Technics A-10 DVD-A player hooked up to his Haffler preamp and NAD power amp and while it did have some frequency extension I didn't hear a night and day difference with some well recorded CD's he had. Maybe like you are saying its a question of having high quality software available.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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rkkwan
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Aug 23, 2002
Posts: 2623
From: Houston, TX
 | Posted: 2004-05-18 03:13
The number of SACDs I have do grow slowly, but steadily. I think I have about 70-80 now. Number of DVD-As is stuck at 11. Haven't bought any since Christmas.
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-Ray
SCD-C222ES, Panasonic DVD-CP72, Rotel RCD-961
B&W 601/2s3, Yamaha RX-V1300, HSU Research VTF-2
Samsung TXM2796HF & SIR-T151
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Tiny_Turtle
Sony Legend
Joined: Oct 09, 2002
Posts: 1116
From: Stockholm, Sweden
 | Posted: 2004-05-18 06:01
GaToy,
The number of DVD-A titles (or "software" as you might call it) released is pretty small compared to the SACD catalog. Why is it a joke?
This Sony oriented forum has nothing against DVD-A, but since Sony doesn't make any DVD-A players there naturally isn't too much to talk about.
Please explain more why MiniDisc died. With software, I'm assuming you mean pre-recorded music. Well MD was launced as a replacement for compact cassettes, not CDs. Are you hoping for prerecorded MP3 players too? As for the format being dead, – the U.S. isn't the same thing as the world and even focusing on the U.S., the format isn't dead, although not globally dominant either.
BBG,
The SACD format allows for hybrid discs, – one layer as regular redbook CD and one SACD layer. There's no need for flippers there. The DVD-A format does not so however
/TinyDisc
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STR-DB930 (w/ RM-LJ304), DVP-NS900V, MDS-JA20ES, CDP-CX220, KV29-FX20, SLV-SE70, DSC-P120 (512MB), MZ-E909 (w/ MDR-EX70SP), CMD-Z5
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rkkwan
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Aug 23, 2002
Posts: 2623
From: Houston, TX
| Posted: 2004-05-18 10:33
MD is alive and well, especially outside N. America.
There are actually flipper DVD-A/CD discs out there. Some discs released in Germany are like that; and there are the "Dual Discs" that were tested in two markets in the US earlier this year - Seattle and Boston. No idea what came of that, of if they will be made and released nationwide (or worldwide).
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-Ray
SCD-C222ES, Panasonic DVD-CP72, Rotel RCD-961
B&W 601/2s3, Yamaha RX-V1300, HSU Research VTF-2
Samsung TXM2796HF & SIR-T151
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rkkwan
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Aug 23, 2002
Posts: 2623
From: Houston, TX
| Posted: 2004-05-18 10:50
http://highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=11109165
Data released 3 weeks ago by RIAA showed that even though DVD-A lead by awareness in the US, SACD outsells them 3-1. That's not surprising. What's striking is the really slow growth of DVD-A sales from 2001-2003. I guess I'm not alone to have a DVD-A player but find no disc to buy.
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-Ray
SCD-C222ES, Panasonic DVD-CP72, Rotel RCD-961
B&W 601/2s3, Yamaha RX-V1300, HSU Research VTF-2
Samsung TXM2796HF & SIR-T151
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
| Posted: 2004-05-18 16:44
On 2004-05-18 06:01, Tiny_Turtle wrote:
Why is it a joke?
Well this one is pretty simple. SACD is a joke because i'm 30 years old. I want to listen to music from my erra, not that i'm knocking classical or blues, it just not my thing. There are plenty of contemporary, R & B, and soft rock groups that I would love to have on SACD or DVD-A. But except for Santanna, Nohra Jones, Shania Twain and a handfull of others, there really isn't much to choose from. At least not in my part of the states. The only place around here that even sell SACD's is BestBuy. Anywhere else you go either doesn't know what i'm talking about or has to order them.
This Sony oriented forum has nothing against DVD-A, but since Sony doesn't make any DVD-A players there naturally isn't too much to talk about.
I have to correct you here too. DVD-A is a rival format for Sony. Sony helped to create SACD. Why do you think Sony won't even mention creating a DVD-A player.
Please explain more why MiniDisc died. With software, I'm assuming you mean pre-recorded music. Well MD was launced as a replacement for compact cassettes, not CDs.
BBG,
Once again, let me correct you. When The Mini Disk came out in the early 90's it was created to give you CD quality sound with the protection of a casset. It was also one of the first formats to incorporate Disk text. A friend of mine bought one of these in 91. At that time it was one of the hottest things out. The problem is you couldn't just go out and buy any music for it. It had to be ordered. And three quarters of the music offered was from the eighties(Just wasn't that interested in buying the Top Gun sound tract.). Now wheather Mini Disk completely died is how you look at it. For people wanting a good recording format yeah its still around. Now if you gao into any music store in the U.S. and ask where the Mini Disk section is, it doesn't exist.
/TinyDisc
~Chris~
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baseballgod
Sonyphile
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 409
From: Connecticut
| Posted: 2004-05-18 21:29
Chris, it wasn't I who brought up the MiniDisc, that was TinyTurtle. However, MD is holding its own as a format because Sony saw a window of opportunity with the NETMD concept. If you look at Sony's MD players now, they are all MP3/ATRAC compatiable for those who like to download music on their PC. I realize there are also CD burners and MP3 players, but the MD offers versatility and packaging advantages. Also as someone with only a few posts under you belt, I'd like to remind you that this is a friendly forum, and many diverse topics of conversation are encouraged, although they may be outside the general scope of the forum.
BBG
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Aragon 24k pre, Aragon 2004 amp
JM Lab Profil 77 floor speakers
PS3, MacBook Pro sources
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Straightwire power cables, MIT I/Cs
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Tiny_Turtle
Sony Legend
Joined: Oct 09, 2002
Posts: 1116
From: Stockholm, Sweden
| Posted: 2004-05-19 06:44
SACD vs DVD-A:
Ok, so you want music from your era and the SACD catalog is a joke. (I can't find any SACD albums by Filter either). Are you saying the situation is better on the DVD-A side of the river? I think not and that was what I opposed to.
DVD-A Hush on Agoraquest:
I think Sony refuses to create a DVD-A player as a way of promoting their own SACD format instead, yes. Nothing of what I wrote on this needs a correction from you as this forum, however, isn't run by Sony, it's independent (note the "unofficial" below "agora" in the logo) so we don't have that restriction (nor do I think Sony would prohibit talk about DVD-A on a forum like this). Would you please enlighten me what justified your need to correct me here?
MiniDisc:
I beg to differ. Both MD and Phillips competing DCC (Digital Compact Cassette) format were aimed at becoming the portable format replacing Phillips analog Compact Cassette. That is why Sony incorporated the shock protection from the beginning. Disk text is a wonderful feature, but isn't really proof to me that Sony intended for MD to replace CD.
If you look at the early mockups and the original MZ-1 (released in December of 1992 in the U.S., btw, so your friend sure must've been an early adopter) they were portable units. Decks took a year or so before appearing. Why would Sony do such a thing if they were hoping to replace the CD (which was picking up speed back then and bringing in vast sums of money to inventors Sony & Phillips)? You must admit it fits better with the portable theory I wrote previously.
Sony originally hoped to sell some prerecorded discs, but that never got any wholehearted backing. As it wasn't the original intent of the format, I fail to see how it should be considered dead, just because there are no prerecorded discs to buy.
Besides, I'm not really that surprised three quarters of the available music avaialbe initially was from the eighties in 1992-1993. What would you have wanted more music from? 1997?
This month Sony actually releases the latest installment of this "dead format", namel "HiMD". Head over to www.minidisc.org and check out why this will live on for a little while longer. Or would you say it will fail because there won't be any prerecorded 45 hour albums out there to buy?
/Calle
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STR-DB930 (w/ RM-LJ304), DVP-NS900V, MDS-JA20ES, CDP-CX220, KV29-FX20, SLV-SE70, DSC-P120 (512MB), MZ-E909 (w/ MDR-EX70SP), CMD-Z5
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-05-19 15:44
I think that Sony has chosen to use a lot of Classical and Jazz Music for their SACD issues for 2 reasons
1) This Music lends itself to being reproduced in a hi-rez format more than popular Music does.
2) The royalties they have to pay (if any at all) are much lower.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
| Posted: 2004-05-19 16:41
baseballgod I don't think I made any mention to you. I was debating with Tiny Turtle. As for not having many posts under my belt, I didn't think I was comming off harsh. If that was the way it was taken I appoligize. I was just expressing my views. I haven't been hear long but I have been on Audio Review, and Home Theater Forum for quite a while.
As for Tiny turtle, when I say eighties I mean early eighties, ten years previous. And I never said Recorded Mini Disk was dead only prerecorded. Sony pushed really hard in the car audio area. This was the first format in the car audio to offer disk text. Yeah MD took off for down loading music. As for the DVD-A thing being Taboo, I was kidding. I guess in the future i'll have to be more serious with my comments.
~C.C.~
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baseballgod
Sonyphile
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 409
From: Connecticut
| Posted: 2004-05-19 20:12
GaToy-My bad, it's hard to tell the tone of someones response when it is in text. You did mention me in that earlier post however, though you probably meat TT. Youtone just came off as condescending. I'm sorry I misinterperted it. Welcome to the forum and may you both learn and contribute with the knowledgable users we are amongst!
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Aragon 24k pre, Aragon 2004 amp
JM Lab Profil 77 floor speakers
PS3, MacBook Pro sources
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Straightwire power cables, MIT I/Cs
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-05-20 00:37
GaToy- You may find the culture to be somewhat different here at Agoraquest than it is over at AR. For the most part we have a very openminded and accomodating crew here and we welcome you to our Forum.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
[ This message was edited by: Maxxwire on 2004-05-20 02:29 ]
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
|  Posted: 2004-05-20 22:45
Thanks ya'll for the invite. Thats just it, i'm very open minded. I ralley for everyone to be included and heard. Thats the problem with AR, they only see things from a snootty view. Another thing I don't like is how they are always bashing Sony. 95% of my system is Sony.
~C.C.~
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-05-21 01:46
C.C.- I came here a year and a half ago when I found a thread that was actualy discussing the very Sony Receiver that I own.
I've been using Sony Audio gear for 30 years now and I'm very happy with it. I've run my Sony DB 930 Receiver along side a Class A Stereophile Magazine recommended Creek 5350SE integrated amp and I was amazed that the DB 930 was the equal to the Creek in every aspect with the exception of the ability to retrieve low level detail. For the $1,000 price difference I can live with that. Plus the Creek doesn't decode DD and DTS Digital formats or have 5 discrete channel amps.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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Tiny_Turtle
Sony Legend
Joined: Oct 09, 2002
Posts: 1116
From: Stockholm, Sweden
| Posted: 2004-05-24 03:16
We're cool, C.C., – I get a bit protective when people dismiss MD as dead. I'll be nice now.
95% Sony doesn't sound like a good setup for enjoying AR, to me. Welcome aboard!
C.S.
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STR-DB930 (w/ RM-LJ304), DVP-NS900V, MDS-JA20ES, CDP-CX220, KV29-FX20, SLV-SE70, DSC-P120 (512MB), MZ-E909 (w/ MDR-EX70SP), CMD-Z5
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rb
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2035
From: Canada
 | Posted: 2004-05-28 13:34
Part of the reason that SA-CD and DVD-A are not lighting up the world is because of players like the Pioneer 563a and Toshiba SD-4900.
People buy these players thinking that they are going to be wowed by the new "HI-REZ" formats. They bring them home and pop in their new disc and it's like "what's the big deal?" These players are NOT capable of demonstrating what DVD-A and SA-CD has to offer. As CD players they are even worse.
As always in the world of audio you get what you pay for.
rb
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-05-28 16:43
You're right rb a hi Rez disc and a crummy player does not take advantage of what is really on the disc!
A Hi Rez disc also needs a Hi Rez capable player, amplification, speakers and an acousticly well tuned room to fully realize all of the resolution that the Audio engineers originaly put on the disc.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
| Posted: 2004-05-28 17:07
On 2004-05-28 13:34, rb wrote:
Part of the reason that SA-CD and DVD-A are not lighting up the world is because of players like the Pioneer 563a and Toshiba SD-4900.
I have to dissagree with you here. I have a pioneer 667A, and it performs as well or better than sony and dennons costing a $1000 and up. True, one of the big problems with most of the units (including the expensive ones) is bass management. I purchased an ICBM from Outlaw Audio and was amazed. The 563A and 667A and all the players like it are the greatest thing to ever happen to DVD-A and SACD. Know i'm also running it through a STR-DA7ES reciever and will soon be swapping out my Sony and Cerwin vega speakers for the Mirage OM9's and omnipolar surrounds. If you don't want to take my word for it just read any of the reviews on these recievers which I will post later which were written back magazines that trash reviews for units costing 10 times as much. This player has gotten nothing short of rave reviews.
~C.C.~
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=1&article_id=509&page_number=1
http://www.hometheatermag.com/dvdplayers/1203pioneer/
[ This message was edited by: GaToy on 2004-05-28 17:09 ]
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baseballgod
Sonyphile
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 409
From: Connecticut
| Posted: 2004-05-28 20:32
Yes, I read that review of the Pioneer, and it seems the reviewer came away favorably impressed. The only real shortfall was the resolution in the surround channels, and they still exceeded CD quality. I cannot vouch for the Toshiba as I have not heard it. Even the video performance of this unit which I have seen on sale for $135 was judged to be above average. Dosen't sound too flawed to me. I myself own a humble JVC XV-FA900BK DVD-V and DVD-A player. Playing through my DA4ES and NHT 5.1 surround sound system, the sound is outstanding, much better than I've seen in stores with the rare set-up. Perhaps the real problem is stores not having knowledgeable sales staff (walk into any non specialty store and ask for DVD-A or SACD and wait for the blank stare) or people with systems that cannot realize the potential of the format (eg. a HTIB system with a multichannel in). Another thing is most people are told when buying the player the digital connection is best, so a less educated consumer may not even employ the 6ch out. Here's my opinion on why DVD-A and SACD haven't exploded.
1. Lack of marketing to the average consumer
2. Cost (factoring in player, 3pr interconnects, and a competent stereo system)
3. lack of salesperson expertise
4. lack of desirable titles.
Hope I didn't ruffle any feathers, just it seems pretty obvious that unless things change these technologies aren't really going to fly.
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Aragon 24k pre, Aragon 2004 amp
JM Lab Profil 77 floor speakers
PS3, MacBook Pro sources
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Straightwire power cables, MIT I/Cs
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rb
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2035
From: Canada
| Posted: 2004-05-28 22:57
About the sound quality of SA-CD and DVD-A through the Pioneer the reviewer from Sound and Vision said
"I think they do indeed sound INCREMENTALLY better that DOLBY DIGITAL and DTS soundtracks"
Pardon me??? Dolby Digital and DTS are both compression schemes that are not lossless. The lowly CD sounds worlds better than both Dolby Digital and DTS.
The new Hi Rez formats should blow them out of the water.
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rb
I listen to music in StereO
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baseballgod
Sonyphile
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 409
From: Connecticut
| Posted: 2004-05-28 23:25
In December 2002, when I first hooked my JVC DVD-Audio player up to my Sony STR-K840P receiver coupled with JBL Speakers and a Sony 100 watt 8" sub, I couldn't hear much difference between a CD and DVD-Audio, I was more interested in the novelty of the surround sound music. In Jan. 2003, I acquired my current DA4ES receiver and an upgraded Sony sub which increased my enjoyment of the format. Over the next year, I acquired a full set of NHT speakers and began to hear the potential of DVD-A. Whether in 2ch through my actively bi-amped NHT ST-4 towers (IMO among the best sub $1000 speakers, if not the best) or in 5.1, it's a totally enveloping experience in sound. I heard a mega-buck DefTech surround system through a DA4ES receiver with the source a Sony 999ES SACD player, and the material Pink Floyds "Dark Side Of The Moon" SACD, and I was not convinced it was any better than my system with it's less expensive speakers and source, same amp. Obviously the room was different,but my set-up is far from ideal as far as placement is concerned as well.
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Aragon 24k pre, Aragon 2004 amp
JM Lab Profil 77 floor speakers
PS3, MacBook Pro sources
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Straightwire power cables, MIT I/Cs
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-05-30 16:16
In my opinion its all about the Music! For me personaly when the day comes that SACD and DVD-A have the Music which I am interested in recorded live in the full resolution of their native format and available in thousands and thousands of titles as it is already on CD, then I will become a participant.
The bottom line for me is that I would rather listen to masterfuly done recordings of Music I love on CD thru highly competent Digital seperates than I would to listen to the titles that are now available in SACD and DVD-A that I have little or no interest in.
Please realize that I'm not knocking the technology or these Hi Rez formats its just that as yet the body of Music available in these formats is lagging far behind the state of the art advances in technology which they represent.
_Maxx (5,000)
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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jehill
Sony Senior Advisor
Joined: Mar 13, 2003
Posts: 13820
From: Sewell, NJ
 | Posted: 2004-05-30 18:03
I have at least one example of where music sound is improved by multi-channels, even if the original source was analog tracks. I have always been intrigued by pipe organ music. Especially when E. Power Biggs is the organist. Yes, you do hear recording hiss sometimes before the music begins, but once the music starts, you don't notice the hiss!
My example is the Sony SACD, "Johann Sebastian Bach, the four great toccatas and fugues, the four antiphonal organs of the Cathedral of Freiburg, played simultaneously by E. Power Biggs".
All I can say, is "wow". Have you ever heard four pipe organs being played simultaneously! I can say "yes". The SACD includes stereo and multi-channel SACD tracks. The stereo tracks are mixed down form the multi-tracks. There simply is no comparison in my mind!
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-John
Sony A/V System: KDL-55XBR8, BDP-S550, AVD-C700ES Super Audio CD/DVD Receiver, 4 SS-LA500ED surround speakers, 1 SS-LAC505ED center channel speaker and 1 SA-WD200 Active Subwoofer
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-05-31 13:46
On Monday evenings at 8:00 pm they have a program called Pipe Dreams on the local Classical Music station and I know its time to fire up the Subwoofer for a good workout. It sounds awesome on the Radio, I'll bet SACD is just that much better!
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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rb
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2035
From: Canada
| Posted: 2004-05-31 17:16
I am not knocking the merits of the Hi-Rez formats either infact I am now on my second DVD-A player and my third SA-CD player.
My point was to make people have realistic expectations when it comes to entry level or budget Hi-Rez players.
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rb
I listen to music in StereO
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-05-31 22:33
There is a lot to be said for the importance of the quality of an SACD player. Richard Kern has gone into exctuciating detail telling me about all that he goes through to modify an already Hi End Sony SACD player which includes measuring the value of each and every Black Gate capacitor he uses in the mod to insure continuity for best results.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
| Posted: 2004-06-01 16:38
Players like the 563A and the 667A are not ment to be the do-all of units. Yes, there are alot better players out there. Comparing this player to an expensive one would be like comparing a Mustang Cobra to a Lamborghini Murcelano. Each very respectable in they're own price range. But the two could never compete in the same field. The players like the 563A are there to get someone to try SACD and DVD-A that normally would be willing to take the risk. And we all know home theater is more addictive than crack. Once your in, your hooked.
~C.C.~
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Tiny_Turtle
Sony Legend
Joined: Oct 09, 2002
Posts: 1116
From: Stockholm, Sweden
| Posted: 2004-06-02 04:01
Well said, Chris. I agree wholeheartedly.
/Tiny Second
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STR-DB930 (w/ RM-LJ304), DVP-NS900V, MDS-JA20ES, CDP-CX220, KV29-FX20, SLV-SE70, DSC-P120 (512MB), MZ-E909 (w/ MDR-EX70SP), CMD-Z5
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-06-02 05:20
GaToy- So are you saying that these entry level SACD and DVD-A Digital front ends are like "gateway players" that will eventualy lead the users to try more hardcore "Higher Resolution" delivery systems?
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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rkkwan
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Aug 23, 2002
Posts: 2623
From: Houston, TX
| Posted: 2004-06-02 12:13
Whether we (i.e. people who really cares about high-resolution) like it or not, entry-level players are extremely important for the success of these formats. There are simply not enough audiophiles out there who can afford $2,000 players to buy enough DVD-A and SACD discs to make those format survive, let alone thrive with many releases.
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-Ray
SCD-C222ES, Panasonic DVD-CP72, Rotel RCD-961
B&W 601/2s3, Yamaha RX-V1300, HSU Research VTF-2
Samsung TXM2796HF & SIR-T151
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-06-02 15:45
Which ever player is used it still requires an Audio system with an equaly high resolution aplification capability and a speaker system that can do justice to the added resolution that these Formats offer in order for them to be fully appreciated.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
| Posted: 2004-06-02 21:10
I don't think I would go that far. Any decent surround set-up can take advantage of the multichannel format to envelope the person into the music. Better equipment means a smoother journey through the musical experience.
~C.C.~
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baseballgod
Sonyphile
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 409
From: Connecticut
| Posted: 2004-06-02 21:41
I see both points, but as I detailed in my earlier post, I was not overly impressed with the higher resolution of dvd-a until I upgraded my downstream components. I thought the surround sound was cool, but the fact it wouldn't play in my other cd players made it a pretty iffy investment. Once I could hear the sonic benefits of the higher bitrate and sampling freq. I now scour store bins and EBay to get my hands on hard to find discs.
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Aragon 24k pre, Aragon 2004 amp
JM Lab Profil 77 floor speakers
PS3, MacBook Pro sources
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Straightwire power cables, MIT I/Cs
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-06-03 03:00
Theoreticaly these Hi Rez formats can create Audio signals with a 144 dB noisefloor and frequencies close to 100k hz.. These sonic attributes are very challenging and only the most well designed Audio equipment is able to transparently convey them with 100% accuracy.
Every SACD or DVD-A player will give you the basic surround sound effect, but to convey the full extent of the resolution that these Hi Rez formats contain takes some very sophisticated and well execuited Audio designs.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
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[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
| Posted: 2004-06-03 14:12
Isn't that the same thing I said with fewer words?
~C.C.~
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-06-03 16:01
C.C.- I was raised to interpret Digital Audio resolution in terms of bit depth and sampling frequency which are quantifiers for the smoothness of the auricular journey.
These quantifiers will also tell you very quickly whether or not a piece of Audio equipment can fully and accurately convey the smoothness of that journey.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
| Posted: 2004-06-03 21:21
But you can't base your listening pleasure on fact sheets. The human ear is only able to detect so much. Anything after that can only be judged meters and computers.
Its just like the difference between a $1000 Dennon and a $10,000 Krell. Can you tell the difference? Yes. Can you tell $9000 worth of difference? No. Anything after what the human ear can detect is just bragging rights as to who has the more expensive equipment.
~C.C.~
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-06-03 21:53
Puting a disc with 24 bit information into a player which only has the ability to render 17 bit resolution is a bit of a waste wouldn't you say?
Some people are willing to pay more to be able to enjoy all that a Digital format has to offer. It has nothing to do with bragging, it has everything to do with enjoyng the Music they love to the fullest.
Idealy everyone will be able to own the Digital front end that best suits their needs. Krell gear is not the solution to everyone's situation. Personaly I think Krell sounds too clinical which is why many call it the "Krell sound".
The best Audio gear to have is the gear gets the job done to your own personal satisfaction whatever its pricepoint might be.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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baseballgod
Sonyphile
Joined: May 13, 2003
Posts: 409
From: Connecticut
| Posted: 2004-06-04 01:39
Maxx is the champion of not only basing an audio opinion on fact sheets. If you read some of his previous posts you will understand this. I believe he was just trying to be a bit less vague than you were, by introducing some of the technical aspects that allows these players to produce such good sound into the discussion.
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Aragon 24k pre, Aragon 2004 amp
JM Lab Profil 77 floor speakers
PS3, MacBook Pro sources
Cambridge Audio DacMagic
Straightwire power cables, MIT I/Cs
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rb
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2035
From: Canada
| Posted: 2004-06-04 02:14
There is no doubt that all of the budget players have good specs. The thing that I think they are missing is actually what I believe to be the most important ingredient.
They don't play music. There is no sense of rythym, pace or timing which is the most difficult part to achieve in a digital front-end. Yes they have great highs, clear midrange, room shakin' bass. They just don't have that quality that gets my toe tapping.
You don't have to buy "high end" to get a player that reproduces music. You just need to look harder. DVD-A players like the Cambridge Audio AZUR 540D or the NAD T533 for example are affordable and sound awesome. Nothing this side of players like the Denon 2900 can compete with them. In my opinion they actually sound better.
If SA-CD is what your after Sony has had a few gems aswell like the SCD-CE775,DVP-NS500V/NS755V or the SCD-XE670. Philips DVD963SA gets rave reviews.
The best part about these players is that they don't trip all over themselves when they play CD's either.I won't own a Hi-Rez player if it can't equal a CD player of same value playing back CD's. CD is where I feel the entry level players really fail.
Yes the home theater and stereo bug is like a crack habit I know that aswell as anyone but if you are going to support your habit you might aswell do it with the good stuff. You don't seem to need your next fix so soon and the trip in between is more enjoyable.
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rb
I listen to music in StereO
[ This message was edited by:
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rb
I listen to music in StereO on 2004-06-04 02:15 ]
[ This message was edited by: rb on 2004-06-04 02:18 ]
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-06-04 16:14
It may be a sacrafice at the time, but if you are a Music lover it will pay off in the end to get the better sounding gear.
It is quite possible to actualy spend more money on buying and replacing cheap Audio gear than it would be to get the better gear in the first place. There are some very good deals on some great Audio gear out there if some time is spent hunting them down.
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
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rb
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2035
From: Canada
| Posted: 2004-06-04 16:46
I absoutely agree. Another benefit of buying a better player is the ability to have it upgraded at a later time instead of replacing the unit with another model that would in the end still not sound as good as the upgraded/modded player.
Companies like Modwright, SACDMods.com and the Parts Connexion have made a thriving business out of taking normal gear and turning them into true "High End" pieces at a fraction of the cost.
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rb
I listen to music in StereO
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
| Posted: 2004-06-04 19:02
I don't think either one of you understand the point that was trying to be made. Budget players are to catch the attention of people that would others wise wouldn't have even bothered. The two of you are only looking at this from an audiophile point of view. I'm not going to argue with either of you. In fact I agree with everything you have said. But these budget players are an attempt to help get more of the overall populas out there interested in a great thing. The more people buying, the more harware that comes out, the lower prices come. Everthing can't be looked at from an audiophile perspective. Nor can it just be judged by fact sheets. You also have to think about the ones that are thinking about getting into HT and are a little skittish about doing so. I don't think there are very many of us out there that went out and spent $3000 on our first reciever. Most of us started out small and as we learned more about the equipment, we upgraded to what we would be happy with. Just keep in mind the old saying, " You have to crawl before you can walk."
Also I have a post for why this thread was originally started in the first place. I found a great place to get SACD's and DVD-A's. www.amusicdirect.com . I didn't know any of these disks were even out there. I won't be buying form Best Buy anymore.
~C.C.~
[ This message was edited by: GaToy on 2004-06-04 19:04 ]
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rb
Ultimate Sony Reviewer
Joined: Mar 04, 2003
Posts: 2035
From: Canada
| Posted: 2004-06-04 20:40
GaToy--For any format to be successful the audiophile community needs to get on board first, then the mass market will follow.
I can't count the number of times that I've told a potential customer that the DVD player they are looking at also plays SA-CD or DVD-A, they look at me like a deer in headlights or like I am speaking to them in a foreign language.
Consumers at the low end of the market could care less about the new Hi-Rez formats. If you are someone that is out shopping for a $100 DVD player sound quality is far from a priority.
What DVD-A and SA-CD really needs to get a shot in the arm are affordable players that are not a step backwards when playing the good old CD of which many people already own large collections. Audiophiles are staying away in droves from players like the Denon 2900 etc for that very reason.
Just like the technology that goes into the equipment there is a trickle down effect. Once the audiophile community excepts them as viable formats the word will trickle down to the masses.
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rb
I listen to music in StereO
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GaToy
Sony Enthusiant
Joined: May 02, 2004
Posts: 29
From:
| Posted: 2004-06-04 21:06
But it is already accepted at the audiophile level and this is how it trickles down to the masses.
This is getting silly. Lets just agree to disagree because this could go on forever. I'm still happy about finally finding SACD's of artist that were alive in my life time. Lets rejoice.
~C.C.~
[ This message was edited by: GaToy on 2004-06-04 21:13 ]
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Maxxwire
Sony Adept
Joined: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 25772
From: Portland, Oregon - USA
| Posted: 2004-06-05 04:00
Right on C.C.! Whatever you play and whatever you play it on, its all about the Music!
_Maxx
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A Satisfied Sony Fan Since 1974!
[IMG]http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Maxxwire_Photos/AQ/N.png[/IMG]
[url=http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26561&forum=51&start=540&select_page_number=37]The OCCC Furu-Charged Sony DB 930[/url]
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