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Agoraquest • View topic - CD mats do they work ?

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View topic - CD mats do they work ?

CD mats do they work ?

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Moderator: jttar

by dontsleep33 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:50 pm

jttar,

How much weight do you recommend me starting out with on the dvd player?
It is kind of flimsy and I think the 20 pound dumbell I have might be a little too much for it.
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by maverick11359 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:13 pm

Quote:-tcgalo

               

That is such a good letter you wrote to Marigo or whatever his name is....try to get a sample from him and see if it works...and then give us a feedback. I like tweaks, but tweaks that have something to do with the media itself...in this case CD or laser tracking in this case, laser absorption....I stay away from....


G'day tc ,
         Thanks !
      It was the honest truth ,I had my tongue in cheek when typing it though, I wanted to touch on the human side of some of these expensive tweeks and see if it brings a responce.

Honestly even if it works, $200 dollars for a piece of plastic with holes cut in it,,,,,my  best ebay win was on a "Mobile Fidelity Ultra disc 2 " "Steely Dan" AJA 24k gold limited edition RB CD ,cost $120 dollars ,where is the comparison ? there was only 500 of the AJA gold disc's made .

       I'll be sure to let you know if i get a reply .

Mav'



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by maverick11359 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:07 pm

Quote:-  tcgalo


Now, Back To The Mat Subject

The reason I stay away from that tweak is because I made my own mat....with green for the so called absorption and tried it... I could not tell a difference when the thing was in or out and I just got rid of it...

That thing claiming that the cut-outs in the mat are cut out to enhance audio is absolutely ridiculous....exactly, how is a cut-out in the mat suppose to change the laser reading....or make it better so that it picks up details that were not there?

Anyway, I think a difference in sound comes from the output stage...and this Marigo guy is making a lot of money selling a 200.00 mat that suppossedly improves audio quality...

I would rather spend the 200.00 on dampening/dispersion of the room treatment than on snake oil...cause to me, that is exactly what the mat is...

Is the audiophile market so corrupt that we try everything that anyone comes out with claiming to improve audio quality? No one would ever know the perfect system in this World as there is always a tweak to take it to the next level...Honestly, WHEN IS IT ENOUGH!!!!!



tc,
    you've done exactly what i would have done, tried the tweek yourself and be judge and jury for your own system ,I was thinking of getting hold of an old large floppy disc and experimenting myself untill my neighbour announced he had one in use (the green SID).

My personal thoughts when accesssing  tweeks usually comes with 3 conclusions ,they will reveal an unknown improvement, retard to make worse, or give a flat nothing responce ....Most the time I'm satisfied with my audio playback , but sometimes seemingly inexpensive tweeks come along and if they can't create havick(within reason) I'll give them a try, curiosity usually gets the better of me.

After all I believe that's the fun in life ,being satisfied untill the next discovery....

So personally I'd say there's never enough,there's always chocies and discoveries to be had.
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by maverick11359 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:19 pm


On 2008-06-15 00:50, dontsleep33 wrote:
jttar,

How much weight do you recommend me starting out with on the dvd player?
It is kind of flimsy and I think the 20 pound dumbell I have might be a little too much for it.





G'day dontsleep,
          When I first started reading your post it reminded me of when I was a greenhorn 1st year electrical apprentice , my foreman on site told me to go and get a long weight from the metal work shop foreman , so I went and asked for along weight ,he just said stand over there and I'll be with you in a minute,,,,10 minutes went buy and he turned and said have you waited long enough now....... LOL .....

Mav'
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by Maxxwire » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:01 am


On 2008-06-15 00:50, dontsleep33 wrote:
jttar,

How much weight do you recommend me starting out with on the dvd player?



dontsleep- At this moment I have a number of different options as far as to which Thread to reply to with this my 20,001st Post here at Agoraquest, but the subject of Resonance Tuning is so vital and is so important to obtaining full scale Resolution from an Audio System that it was a very easy decision to address your question.

About 6 years ago I asked myself the exact same question of how much weight is appropriate for my Digital Front End in that I was fortunate enough to be able to buy a box full of assorted used Resonance Tuning tools for $40 which included about a dozen hybrid Sorbothane footers and nearly 30 lbs of different sized brass weights which I began to experiment with. At one time I was up to 15 lbs of brass and lead weights on the top of the Digital equipment, but it didn't seem to make any difference at all how much I used

What I ended up with was a 2 lb lead weight and two 3 oz brass discs for weight. Using Mass loading with weights for dampening is one subject and experimenting with first small and then larger amounts of weight will eventually reveal the equipment's sonic tipping point, but it takes more than dampening to resolve the Peizoelectric effects of Resonance on your equipment because the parts inside your equipment respond to vibrations the same way that the pickups on your electric guitar do to the vibrations of the strings when different notes notes (vibrations) are played. Capacitors are particularly microphonic in this respect.

In order to isolate or Decouple my Digital Front End from the negative influences of unwanted Resonance I chose to first provide the equipment with a high density Granite Energy Sink and then placed each piece either on viscous Sorbothane or hybrid Sorbothane hemiapherical footers. Once that was accomplished the equipment was basically Tuned enough to Fine Tune it with just the right amount of weight to optimize the Resonance Tuning that I had done.

The Fine Tuning was done in the key of G using a segment of Beethoven's Opus for String Quartet #18 which was written in that key. I'm not specifically recommending Fine Tuning in that particular key its just that this piece had attack transients that I could manipulate the speed of by very slightly altering the amount of weight on the top of the Digital Front End which allowed me to do such precise Fine Tuning.

It is impossible to make any specific recommendations when it comes to Resonance Tuning because every Audio System including yours is unique. The only way to find the perfect amount of weight for dampening or combination of Resonance Tuning applications that works best is to keep an open mind and let your trained ear lead the way.

I know from experience that Resonance Tuning does work if dillegently applied
by someone with a trained ear for Music and plenty of patience.  Someone who has learned  how to tune a guitar by the use of beat frequencies definately has an advantage when it comes to  Resonance Tuning an Audio System.

~Maxx~


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by maverick11359 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:11 am


On 2008-06-14 03:27, maverick11359 wrote:
G'day guys,
               
          dontsleep33 I had to have a laugh not at you but at the situation topic,,,,your half a world away and have exactly the same point of veiw as many of my fellow Aussies had a couple of years back,don't misunderstand me either ,everyone has a right to their own opinion and has the right to voice it, that's the great part of these forums and that's why where all close mates at Agora.  

           I joined our local Aussie forum a couple of years ago and I was basically shot to pieces for my tweeking ideas,so in the end I didn't hang around they weren't ready for change.The trouble with some of my fellow audiophile country men is that they don't like change or what seems to be out there ideas, unless (LOL)  its written in black and white ,proof read, tested for 10 years ,and it comes with a beer and beer coaster to kick back and relax with.(LOL)

            I respect the way you've stated your opinion and hope that you understand like Maxx and Joe  mine is generally 180degrees the opposite to yours in direction . As a 34 year experienced Electricain and 49 year young Aussie ,I decided a long time ago it dosn't cost anything to except most peoples ideas and listen to everyones opinions ....it's simple' I  just test them for myself before I incorperate them or dismiss them.....

            If you get a chance to look back through this DIY forum you'll also see like Maxx and Joe from my posts I have tweeked my system with many steps over the years ,building my own Power cords,Power conditioners,Interconnect cables,External crossovers and the list goes on and on , I'm happy to say even selling some along the way on ebay.com to make a small profit,,,so importantly to me IMHO my system  has all the advantages of highend tweeks at a buget cost .
            
           My point being you don't have to spend a fortune to get fantastic results ,that's the fun side of the hobby , experimenting when it doesn't hurt the hip pocket.

           To get back to the topic at hand ,I've had a little fun writing an email to MARIGO AUDIO  , I don't mind you having aread if you want I'm waiting for a responce:-


Subject lease convince me your CD mat works


  

Hi' ,
             I am a true believer in Hearing is believing, I've completely tweeked my mid range Denon /Rotel/SonyES system with power conditioners , resonnance cones,silver interconnects and power leads,  purecopper speaker cables, rebuilt my crossovers with mundorf caps/ metal oxide resistors and finished with room accoustic treatments and everyone of them has made a huge substantial improvement ,that could be heard ...

          Having said all that you can see I'm very open minded and love tweeks,so just yesterday I tried my friends (with Passlabs/Jmlabs system) SID CD mat in my  Denon 3910 SACD player and dissapointingly it appeared to do absolutely nothing...........I wanted to hear a difference so my wife did a blind A-B test on me and tested with the SID mat in and out on the same 30seconds piece of music ,,,,result  
(I said the mat was in when it wasn't )," 3 times i got it wrong".I couldn't tell

       So my question, How does your mat out perform the SID ,How can I now convince my wife that a $200 dollar CD mat  will outperform the SID CD mat that obviously to her accomplished nothing.

     How do I convince my wife to allow me to buy your Mat.

       Richard.


     




Hi guys ,
              I have a email reply ,,,,quote:-



     Hi Richard,
first, anything you purchase from Marigo Audio has a 100%
satisfaction/money back guarantee. So try what you wish with an easy
mind.  Attached are a few comments including most recent one which is
pretty typical. Also our product price list. BTW, yes the SID sucks. So
I'm not giving a comparison to the SID. We accept all credit cards and
Paypal. Your ears are the only gage and guide, so I'm not going on and
on. Just read the attachments please. Let me know if you wish a trial of
this product. Your cost would be $180 plus $9 shipping.
best regards,
Ron Hedrich
designer
Marigo Audio



The attachments to the email ,,this was one review :-
  
A Stereo Tweak "MARIGO/3-D STABILIZER MAT SIGNATURE"

<!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

A Stereo Tweak "MARIGO/3-D STABILIZER MAT SIGNATURE"

Hi to all

You know i'm nuts, but here i go anyway

I had noticed mention of the "MARIGO/3-D STABILIZER MAT SIGNATURE" in several on-site and hardcover Stereo Mags and was intrigued by its claims.

The last mention was in Absolute Sound Mag by Harry Pearson. Mr. Pearson mentioned it by the Marigo name but no further and upon investigation of their site i found 2 such Discs available. One was $99.95 and the other $199.95 US.

Not being sure which one he was using i sent him an Email inquiring as to which one it was? I might have known it would be the more expensive one, but worth a shot.

He responded within a week and stated it was the more costly of the two. I thanked him for his taking the time to answer my query and suggested i would be ordering one to try, which i have done.

He sent me a further Email asking if i would submit to him my findings on it to him. I was quite surprised by this but agreed to do so.

Mr. Pearson is well known to the Stereo Community and is in no small way responsible for many terms used to describe his findings when evaluating various pieces of Stereo equipment, in his reviews for Absolute Sound.

Not wanting to look the complete fool i tried to do a thorough investigation and describe what i was feeling and hearing when using the Disc, pro or con.

This is my reply to him as of the other day.

---


Hi Mr. Pearson

Re the promise of an assessment of the MARIGO/3-D STABILIZER MAT SIGNATURE, i give you the following. Excuse my amateurish assessment and descriptive language used.
----

The first Test i did and all that follow involved the same procedure of listening before using the STABILIZER MAT, then adding it for further listening and comparisons, then removing and replacing it several times to ensure What i was noticing was in effect really What i was noticing.
---

First Cd used was one i always rely on to Test for Clarity. A Stereophile Test CD2. I use track 13 as i find this to be a challenge to correctly situate speakers and sound reflection devices. When done right and clarity is no longer an issue i find your pretty much on the money for everything else.

Track 13 is "The Dream of Gerontius"
--

First without the Mat, then...

Right from the beginning you could hear and feel the differences in Height, Depth and Layering. The weight of images also was positively affected as well as the Air surrounding them as they appeared and disappeared.

The Horns had more Bite and a metallic sound that produced a shimmer to the horns unheard prior to the Mat being used.

The Strings where rounder and there was more tone to them.

The sound seemed to billow like on a cloud, that seemed to expand as it moved towards me.

The Soloist placed hard left emerged as a more rounded body, unlike the pasteboard image he was prior to the Marigo being applied. His voice more melodious & clear.

When the drums enter left they have heft and roll across the stage ending with a horn at hard right to complete their trek. This all seems to be distinct yet at the same time all part of a piece.

The Chorus enters from a space adjacent to but not infringing on the Soloists place and covers the entire stage to the right, filling the area with mass.

They sound less welded to one another with each having more space, yet retaining a wholeness at the same time.

Overall if i may use the Cloud analogy, it seems to me that voices and differing instruments each have a cloud of their own yet blend together to form a seamlessness not heard prior to the Marigo being used. Hard for me to put into words, but not at all difficult for me to hear and be moved by.

Yes there is more emotional involvement brought on by the musics presentation imho as well.

Sounds like quite a lot from a not very impressive little circle of whatnot that costs $199 Dollars US, but to me at least its starting to lessen the buyers remorse we all feel when we get involved with something like this, that causes friends to give you "That Look". Hahaha

I hope that was and is something you can make sense of. Now to more mainstream offerings by Artists you may well have in your collection. I'm not big on Classical, not at all into Rap but love Classic Rock and most things that are done well, from Blues to Reggae.

--

Here we go again with Leonard Cohen's "The Essential Leonard Cohen"
--

Track 12
The voices are much more present and powerful. The strings have much more tonality and the bodies of their instruments more pronounced, with an overall sweetness not present prior in my opinion.

Track 13
The voices soar floor to ceiling and wall to wall with a powerful density to the sound. You can feel the skins of the drums flex it seems and their beat is quite distinctive.

--

Jazz at the Pawnshop (This is a great recording to start with in my opinion)
--

Track 2
The Vibes are more correct in their sound, to my ears. There is greater depth and overall a more musical presentation.


Track 5
After much back and forth with the Marigo Mat i honestly feel there to be more shimmer & decay to the cymbals. Nothing jumps out at you, but its there.

--

Diana Krall...Live in Paris
--

Track 1
More flesh and snap to her fingers on countdown and you can feel the tension in the guitar strings which overall seems to improve the pace of the whole track.

Track 12
Solo Tenor Sax has more Blat & Reediness to its tone. A more continuous and musical presentation overall i think.

---

Bottom line after a weeks usage, the "MARIGO/3-D STABILIZER MAT SIGNATURE" does add to the presentation and enjoyment of the music in a positive manner and seems to justify its price (though i feel it too high for what you physically get). At $99 Dollars i think it would be fair value for the money. However for those who have already tweaked and tuned to the best of their ability it does give you that bit more that we all strive for and that is difficult to put a price on.

One suggestion
The Disc should come in a slightly larger Jewel Case or have a centre spindle to save one from miscentering it and bending it by closing the case when not properly seated.

--

My System is modest by your standards

Rotel RCD 955AX player Modified by G&D Transforms, used as a Transport to a
Non-oversampling DAC by Mhdt Labs "Paradisea" using a NOS Western Electric 396A Tube

Bryston BP25 preamp (Recently rebuilt by Bryston)
Bryston 3B ST Amp (Recently rebuilt by Bryston)
PSB Stratus Gold Speakers

Just changed from Kimber KCAG & AGDL Interconnects to Grover pure Silver BiWire Speaker Cables, Interconnects & Digital Cable...A definite step up. Highly recommended by none other than Mr. Steve Hoffman.

I have dedicated power lines & use Quiet Lines in the appropriate outlets, as well as Corner Tunes & sound deadening materials in strategic places. I also use Hubbell Hospital outlets.

My room is approximately 14 1/2' by 28 long and 8 1/2' high.

I hope this is sufficient information for you,

--

regards

Larry Minicola

--

From the above you'll see i was impressed with the Mat. I included my reply to him to give you some idea as to my findings.

It is nothing to look at to be sure, but it performs as advertised and after continuous use on varying CD's there is no doubt in my mind as to its adding much greater enjoyment to the musicality & clarity of the presentation of my system.

I just listened to Roger Waters "Amused to Death" a CD filled with all kinds of buried treasures and was very impressed with the added clarity i heard.

It truly did add to the enjoyment of all CD's i have listened to with no real negatives that i can find. Your mileage may differ of course.

If your like me are looking for that last ounce more, might i suggest you give one a go.

http://www.musicdirect.com/products/...ord=marigo+mat
--


If anyone is using one i would be interested in hearing your assessment of it.
minir

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by maverick11359 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:22 am

second  attachment  :-

   
















Model: 3-D Signature Stabilizer Mat
Category: Accessory
Suggested Retail Price: $199.99
Description: Mat helps to get all the digital information from all types of digital discs
Manufacturer URL: Marigo Audio Labs









Review by jaybyrd (A) on January 30, 2006 at 07:07:09
IP Address: 66.248.1.73
Add Your Review
for the 3-D Signature Stabilizer Mat















After using the Marigo Signature Mat for approximately five months, I am pleased to communicate the following:

At first I was skeptical that any CD mat (even one costing $200) could dramatically improve playback of CDs (I have tried a couple of other mats costing $20-40 and they both provided some improvement). I have approximately $20K invested into my high end audio system, so investing $200 was a "no brainier", especially with the money back guarantee.

Well, the improvement was dramatic, especially on low level passages (I listen mostly to classical music); the improvement in detail and "air" was remarkable.

I will not go through all the improvement adjectives that all improvements provide to some degree. Maybe the improvement is best explained with a comparison: I have a digital enhancement system with all the mods and accessories, which cost well over $3000; it upsample to 96K and interpolates from 16 to 24 bits; when I compare the relative improvement between that system and your mat, the $200 mat wins hands down; probable 4- 5 times the audible improvement! The combination is awsome; the two provide almost perfect analog sound from a digital source.

I read the criticism of the mat that was referenced (in the name of balance) in a very positive review by Jason Serinus. The criticism was voiced by a person who hadn't even listened to the mat. RIDICULOUS!

The signature mat provides the "most bang for the buck" of any component improvement that one could try (interconnects, power cords, resonance control, etc). At least in my system, that has been the case. To anyone sharing my initial skepticism, I say TRY IT and you'll use it every time you play a CD. Indeed, a "no brainer". J



















Product Weakness: None.
Product Strengths: Simple and easy to use; just place it on top of the CD, close the drawer and listen! The most improvement in sound quality of any upgrade.














































Associated Equipment for this Review:
Amplifier: Aragon 2004
Preamplifier (or None if Integrated): Placette Active
Sources (CDP/Turntable): Arcam DVD Player used as a transport
Speakers: GNP Valkyre
Cables/Interconnects: mostly Siltec (all silver)
Music Used (Genre/Selections): Classical
Room Size (LxWxH): 12ft x 16 ft x 8 ft
Room Comments/Treatments: none
Time Period/Length of Audition: five months
Other (Power Conditioner etc.): BPT Balanced Pwr Supply, Perpetual P1a and P3a
Type of Audition/Review: Home Audition
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by maverick11359 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:32 am

 Well I'm gob smacked,
                          This company really believes in its product and these two reviewers seem to be on the level .There was a third review coming from a guy in OZ in Queensland and he loved it also even left a local phone number to ring.

       I would love to try it but at $200 I just couldn't press the buy key, not yet anyway .

       Mav'
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by Maxxwire » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:30 am

Maverick- For the man who has upgraded nearly every other facet of his Audio System perhaps this is the next step toward the ultimate sound quality for you. I noticed that the reviewers that you quoted also had very highly competent Audio equipment as you do and I suspect that this is a prerequisite for this mat to get such amazing results. It appears as though this is not a Tweak that beginners would derive nearly as much benefit from as a Transport upgrade has more potential weak links downstream from it than any other piece in the System.

~Maxx~
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by maverick11359 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:47 pm

G'day Maxx,
                 I'll just keep reseaching for the time being ,interesting build on the Marigol Signature :-
 

MARIGO - 3-D STABILIZER MAT SIGNATURE MK II





MARIGO/3-D STABILIZER MAT SIGNATURE MK II


The Ultimate Reference CD Damping Mat!


2006 TAS Editor's Choice Award - Harry Pearson - December 2006


The Marigo Signature Mat is the ultimate Reference Mat for all your digital players! The Signature adds a proprietary Gold surface on top of their anti-static black coating and optically absorbent green mat. The 3-D Signature Stabilizer MAT utilizes revolutionary new technology; employing a Carbon Fiber and Kevlar composite with Embedded Ultra-fine Silver Wire for stray field suppression. The Signature Mat takes your audio and video performance up to an even higher level of effortless realism. This synergistically creates an added level of realism to the performance of any digital player! Works on both audio and video players; so you will see and hear a dramatic improvement. Inner detail, resolution, and ambient information are dramatically enhanced. In video replay, the Marigo Labs Signature 3-D Mat greatly enhances picture detail and dimensionality. You will experience an involving 3-D video performance as never before. The harmonic structure of instruments and the human voice are reproduced with an absolute lifelike presentation. Just load it and go!! Once you try it, you'll never listen without it.


Harry Pearson awarded the Marigo 3-D Stabilizer Signature MK II an Editor's Choice Award in the December 2006 issue of The Absolute Sound magazine.





     In comparison the Sid Is just a piece of green vinyl ,interesting Hay!

       Mav'
maverick11359
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