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Agoraquest • View topic - Well I've Done it! Mav's Power Conditioners

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View topic - Well I've Done it! Mav's Power Conditioners

Well I've Done it! Mav's Power Conditioners

This forum is where you can give tips or talk about building your own stuff

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by SPCOOLIN » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:13 am


On 2007-12-13 02:19, Maxxwire wrote:
Steve- I've read of others who have had the same experience as you have had with running their Power Amps off of Line Conditioners without the dynamics being limited.

Whether or not the dynamics are effected could be System related because so many people have reported compressed dynamics under the same operating circumstances.  
Here's Doug Blackburn's explaination of how Power Amps draw power much differently than other low current Audio equipment does-

/>Larger components with higher voltage power supplies, like amplifiers, will have current pulses that are shorter in duration, and higher in magnitude (amps).

This is because amplifiers have to get all their power during the small portion of the AC waveform that is higher in voltage than the power supply in the amplifier. The current pulses vary in frequency and peak depending on the frequencies and volume level of the music being played.

These current demands may well be the reason that it is not too unusual for mid-priced PLCs to sound like they are limiting amplifier performance instead of making them sound better.
*******************

~Maxx~  


Maxx~

I have read the above quote and concur, but in the basic troubleshooting of anything electrical...There are symptoms, or signs...and one thing does lead to another....Voltage drop is a very important one is all I'm saying...and most of these type complaints could very well be diagnosed knowing Voltage and Amperage draw at any (or that) given moment....At least as a contributing factor...Most times there should be correlation if it can be read accurately...

Mind you...I'm no engineer...But I have done my share of electrical troubleshooting in my career, and I have to believe that some that find these symptoms, post their observations, or make such claims as power conditioners limiting dynamics (and not that they can't) may have been ignoring the other contributing factors before blaming the conditioner.....

Of course I'm not referring to the likes of Doug Blackburn but...It's also not easy for the likes of Doug to answer every ones dilemma without seeing a given system in operation where it lives....Knowing exactly if, and where a voltage drop occurs can point to where exactly the problem/deficiency lies....

Current Limited...Shows up as reduced Voltage (maybe not even reduced reduced by much) and this is where an accurate tool can be implemented to locate the problem/deficiency....

Just as we talk of the benefits of connections, cords, and plugs....the inferior of two examples should show some measurable difference A to B with the correct measurement tool....Whether it shows as a drop in voltage...a altering of Wave Form, or Timing Cycles (Hz)...They are contributing factors that should be able to be measured...

What I'm saying is...to diagnose a power conditioner as current limiting, and thus starving a given power supply of the power needed for dynamics...All factors including the connection methods should be considered...and can be measured to determine if in fact it's the conditioner...or the method in which it has been connected when compared to the same equipment connected directly to the wall...

Current coming into the building is just that....Current...From a source...Be it as it is from that source, The same could be measured at the outlet (the wall source) and then compared to exit ....Comparisons can be made at every connection in the chain for that matter....
Where it is altered can be the only reason for difference in what comes out the other end....and Where that takes place when compared to entry is the answer....Those differences are measurable, and I'm a bit at a loss as to why a more comprehensive guideline has not been mentioned/published as to...What conditioners do what, to what source, in independent reviews....

Steve~

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by Maxxwire » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:09 pm



On 2007-12-13 14:13, SPCOOLIN wrote: I have to believe that some that find these symptoms, post their observations, or make such claims as power conditioners limiting dynamics (and not that they can't) may have been ignoring the other contributing factors before blaming the conditioner.

I'm a bit at a loss as to why a more comprehensive guideline has not been mentioned/published as to...What conditioners do what, to what source, in independent reviews...



Steve- Of the hundereds of Audiophiles whom I have heard claim that the very effective high quality Line Conditioning they use on all of the rest of their Audio equipment cause current limitation when used by their high output Power Amps all of them have used the same simple methodology to reach their conclusions.

This method being to plug the Power Amp into the wall outlet and then compare its performance when running off of their Line Conditioner with no other factors being introduced to complicate or obfuscate the results.
I think that many of the comprehensive Line Conditioner evaluations that you are speculating about the existance of already exist only scattered amongst hundereds and hundereds of different websites representing the comprehensive information that each individual manufacturer has posted on their product.

Even if this detailed information was compiled and made available in one specific location as you noted each Audio System differs greatly. We are each very independant people and each individual would still be determined to find out whether or not the Line Conditioning he uses limits current to his Power Amp.

~Maxx~

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by SPCOOLIN » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:26 am


On 2007-12-15 01:09, Maxxwire wrote:

<blockquote>
On 2007-12-13 14:13, SPCOOLIN wrote: I have to believe that some that find these symptoms, post their observations, or make such claims as power conditioners limiting dynamics (and not that they can't) may have been ignoring the other contributing factors before blaming the conditioner.

I'm a bit at a loss as to why a more comprehensive guideline has not been mentioned/published as to...What conditioners do what, to what source, in independent reviews...



Steve- Of the hundereds of Audiophiles whom I have heard claim that the very effective high quality Line Conditioning they use on all of the rest of their Audio equipment cause current limitation when used by their high output Power Amps all of them have used the same simple methodology to reach their conclusions.

This method being to plug the Power Amp into the wall outlet and then compare its performance when running off of their Line Conditioner with no other factors being introduced to complicate or obfuscate the results.
I think that many of the comprehensive Line Conditioner evaluations that you are speculating about the existance of already exist only scattered amongst hundereds and hundereds of different websites representing the comprehensive information that each individual manufacturer has posted on their product.

Im not sure about other manufactuers, but this is a direct quote from My Panamax 5300EX's Data Page....

Outlet Bank 3

Two switched, high current outlets
controlled by the front
panel Power Button or the DC Trigger input. Bank 3 has a 5

second turn on delay and turns off immediately. The High

Current outlets provide power from a low impedance noise filtration

circuit that does not limit the current to your equipment.


Its output is noise isolated from all other outlet banks.


And other then the below specs....there is no other comprehensive data...

EMI/RFI Noise Filtration

Banks 1 - 4:_________________________________________ 90 db, 100 KHz – 2 MHz

Bank 3, High Current Outlets:____________________________60 db, 100 KHz – 2 MHz


Common Mode (all banks)____________________________ 60 db, 100 KHz - 2 MHz




Even if this detailed information was compiled and made available in one specific location as you noted each Audio System differs greatly. We are each very independant people and each individual would still be determined to find out whether or not the Line Conditioning he uses limits current to his Power Amp.

~Maxx~




Maxx~

All I'm trying to say is...Panamax is in the bussiness of providing filtration...For them to make such claim...and not have it be true, I'm guessing would be documented, or disputed in some independent test...

I did say with my system, and my large amp...I notice no limitations when compared to direct from the outlet...as Panamax claims...No current limitations....

Now if the amp exceeded the Panamax's 15 amp rating, or there was a issue with the connection method in a particular installation that caused the current to be more then spec as I mentioned in my above posts....Or even if the total current amount of all items connected to the conditioner exceeded rating...then I could understand the claims....

I don't pretend to call hundreds of audiophiles wrong...I just don't understand the claim without rationalization....And I submit to there can be many factors in each system/conditioner to come to their conclusion...

But Hey...If they hear a difference...Who am I to say ?...More power to them (pun intended)
Us Audiophiles are funny that way....    

Steve~


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by Maxxwire » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:20 am


On 2007-12-15 11:26, SPCOOLIN wrote: But Hey...If they hear a difference...Who am I to say ?...More power to them (pun intended)
Us Audiophiles are funny that way....    

Steve~



Steve- The one and only reason that I brought up the existance of this huge group of Audiophiles who have had the experience of even the best Line Conditioners limiting the dynamics of their Power Amps was because if Maverick does go into production on a 20 Amp North American version of the Mav's 3.1 he will eventually have to confront the steadfast opinion of this very vocal and influential group of Audio Asylum members.

I hope that you didn't think that I was disputing the non-current limiting experience that you have had with your Panamax 5300 running your Parasound HCA2205A because I certainly was not. Actually it was refreshing to hear as you know what a Panamax fan I have been for years!

~Maxx~

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by SPCOOLIN » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:40 am

No Maxx...I wasn't implying that you were either...It's just that so many others may read this, and I wanted to get my points across for others to consider when thinking of power conditioners....

Sometimes everything gets lost in translation...and I may have contributed to confusion, but hopefully I've presented another logical viewpoint effectively....

Steve~

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by Maxxwire » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:04 pm


Steve- This whole situation is very simple either an individual notices current limiting or no current limiting when running a Power Amp off of Line Conditioning and either result would be valid given its individual set of circumstances.

All I was trying to do is let Maverick know the shared opinion of the overwhelming majority of Power Amp users who have expressed their opinion concerning this subject.

You and I do have something in common though and that is that on certain occasions the results I have gotten in my Audio System prove to be the exception when compared with the collective opinion that these esteemed Audiophiles have which makes us both at times the exception to their collective opinion or in other words... exceptional!

~Maxx~


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by maverick11359 » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:16 pm

G'day guys,
             Thought you might like to know ,3 years have passed since the mav's(power conditioners) first rolled of my  work bench, LOL. Not much to report ,apart that they still keep keeping on ,quietly doing their relentless job of cleaning up the sound stage for my and my friends humble systems.. No bad reports from friends that I know of anyway, they still must be all functioning .

As my pointed eared friend says... "Live long and prosper" !!! my little power conditoners...3rd happy anniversary.

Mav'

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by jttar » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:06 pm

Hello Mav',

Happy Anniversary to your Mav Power Conditioners. Good to hear that they are still doing their job and that everyone is still benefiting from the fruits of your labor and expertise.

Hard to believe that it has been three years. Where does the time go?

Well done my friend,
Joe
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by Maxxwire » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:52 am

Mav- Its great to hear that the excellent high quality Power Conditioners you designed and built are continue to perform sonic wonders around the world!



Happy 3rd anniversary of fulfilling your dream of making an ultra high build quality Power Conditioner which even your pointy eared friend would marvel at!

~Maxx~

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by mykyll2727 » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:21 pm

 Mav_I can't believe it's been three years already. My 3.1 has never been out of my system since it's arrival and I'm still happy as can be with it. Congrats on a great job my friend and happy anniversary!!!!!_Mykl
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